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New "would be critically impaired without access..."
IOW, It would be just as it was before you again impaled our privacy and freedom on the altar of "Security"

If the phrase in the subject line were to be stricken from the lexicon, the current "administration" would be (mercifully) unable to utter a sound!
jb4
"When the final history is written in Iraq, [link|http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tmate/2006/tmate060926.gif|it'll look just like a comma.]"
George W. Bush, 24 Sep 06
New What privacy?
None of the data used is private in today's landscape, you simply now want to limit who's eyes get to it..specifically you want those eyes to NOT be the government.

So then, by extension, you want the airlines to control airport security, as it was before?

Is this correct?

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Did I say that? No, I didn't.
Are we going to get into another round of straw-man bashing BeeP?

Ahhh...but I can see where you might infer, inflect, and imbue such a position, so let me clarify wha the meaning of "before" is: ;-)

By "before", I mean't before the Gubmint availed themselves of the sekrit score generator, and started applying the hidden handles to fliers everywhere. That was well after our vaunted TSA (div. of the Dept of Fatherland Sicherheit) took over "airport security" from the poor, bumbling airlines.

Hope that clarifies things for you....
jb4
"When the final history is written in Iraq, [link|http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tmate/2006/tmate060926.gif|it'll look just like a comma.]"
George W. Bush, 24 Sep 06
New Not directly but it is only logical conclusion
because the data being used to generate the scores is all data stored by the airline and other parties to the transaction.

So, to go back to the "old" way, would be to have the airlines use that data to generate profiles..essentially making airlines again responsible for security.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Except for the **other** only logical conclusion
Which is, of course, what I originally meant (and reiterated for the cognition-impared)
jb4
"When the final history is written in Iraq, [link|http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tmate/2006/tmate060926.gif|it'll look just like a comma.]"
George W. Bush, 24 Sep 06
Expand Edited by jb4 Dec. 1, 2006, 01:14:02 PM EST
New Except that..
...the poor bumbling airlines were the ones using this info to generate security lists before.

So, the only thing that has changed is the entity processing the data....not the process itself.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New You may have stumbled onto something there
Airlines have an interest in the security of their flights. It seems prudent that they should have an interest in their patrons. And they get sued out their ass if they abuse the information. This is somewhat differrent than the government doing 40 year profiles that are not auditable on its citizens.
Airline stupidity is one thing, and can be corrected by the market, at least while there are still 2 or more airlines... Government stupidity is incredibly hard to correct. It generally requires a revolution, and those are SO messy...
New It really boils down to the fundamental issue
do you want the airlines handling security or do you want the government controlling security.

That was the point I was making before.

They will be using the same data. They will be following roughly the same process. Making it a privacy issue is silly..as you have already forfeited the right to privacy on that data by giving it to a corporation. Sure they have "privacy statements"...and you have a change to litigate...but all those are side issues to the more fundamental "who owns the process"
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Yepper...
Exactly when was the last time you thought the government worked for you?
Alternately, when was the last time you thought you didn't work for the government?

There is some chance, asymptotically small, I realize, that a corp can be made to function to its patrons wishes. A government will never submit to such insolence... It knows what the people want. And at the end of 40 years it may decide that those records are just too juicy to relinquish. So they will keep them for anther 40... no skin off my butt; I'll be dead by then. But some other poor bastard will get kicked off a plane because of my current bad attitude. It's a safe assumption. Government incompetence is ageless. Ask the Romans.
New Every day I work for the government.
they take it out of my hide in taxes...that lots of folks here think aren't high enough.

Aside from the obvious fact that you have about as much faith in the gubmint as I do...there are lots of people out there that think airport security is a fundamental responsibility of the government...and the airlines will not and cannot be effective because they are 1) poorly managed and 2) broke.

In the end, it is the either/or. And while I am no real defender of the TSA...whether you choose to believe it or not...they are doing a better job than the airlines were doing pre-TSA.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New My hide has similar gouges
On the other paw, I used to fly to a bunch of different places. Now I drive to Chicago; it's faster. Really. Not as efficient, but I get there and I don't have to wonder what they're doing with my wifes underwear. I don't actually care what they do with my or her undies as long as they are as clean as when we boarded.

I just have this weird silly feeling that they shouldn't be in my undies. With the airlines, the baggage smashers stole what they wanted and I got to keep what wasn't interesting. Now I lose anything metal or what might be prurient to a minimum wage panty watcher. I don't want to play anymore.


I'm probably a hopeless old prude... who'd a thunk it?
New Not to mention just plain thievery.
Brought a carton of cigs up from GA for a friend of mine in NJ - when I got there, it had be opened and 3 packs were missing. Now I don't check ANYTHING - and that restricts what I can bring at all.

Yeah, brave protectors of the fatherland.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Dude, if you didn't check it
when did it leave your sight?

Not doubting it happened...just trying to figure out where in the process it could have.

Or is that the last time you checked anything?

Baggage handlers are still airline employees. No amount of TSA screening is going to improve that lot.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New It's just adding another layer of idiots to the mix.
Entropy increases. Nothing gained. More lost. The terrorists won. Done deal. Continue justifying to your hearts content. HAND.
New Won what?
the game of building a new crowd of critics to a process that wasn't any good before and remains no good after?

Or do you really think the travel experience has changed that drastically?

I've been a freqeuent flyer since I was 15. The initial change to the tighter screening policy was an adjustment that gave long lines and inconvenience. The longest I've waited in security (in airports EWR, ATL, IAH, ORD, CDG, YYZ, MSP, DTW, SFO, PIT, CLT, PHX, (damn, I have traveled alot this year cause this list isn't exhaustive but good enough) is 20 minutes...and that was Sunday after Thanksgiving in Charlotte...THE most congested travel day of the year and traveling with a party of 5. It took me longer to get chicken fingers and french fries for the kids to eat pre-boarding.

No, see. The situation hasn't changed. The airlines lost bags before...they still lose bags. The handlers swiped crap before...they still do now. The screeners missed crap before, they miss crap now (less...maybe...but it isn't what was promised). They airlines lost money before, they lose money now. Not a damned thing different...save wanting to get to the airport 90 minutes prior to a domestic flight instead of 60 (and thats the advise...60 minutes is fine again)

So the terrorists succeeded? If making the public bitch about something is a victory...yep, they won. If you think they scared anyone...travel is now at its highest volume ever in this country. Our collective memory seems to last about 5 years.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New The situation hasn't changed?
Yes, luggage is still lost. Yes, waits haven't changed much (in may cases).

But we're spending about [link|http://www.tsa.gov/press/speeches/speech_1001.shtm|$4.7B] a year on aviation security now. That's TSA's budget request for FY07.

What are we getting for the increased money spent? Not much, it seems.

Cheers,
Scott.
New You aren't looking
Flown internationally? Those big explosive scanners right out in front of you? Free? hardly. Staff to run them free? hardly.

Several thousand new government employees whose job it is to fly on your plane and not be seen. free? nope. The seats they occupy? nope.

How much more we pay versus what the airlines were paying is the subject of quite a bit of debate. It is most CERTAINLY more. I will be the last one to tell you that the government can do anything efficiently...so are we getting our money's worth? Not likely. But the same goes for Nat Defense, eduction and everything else our tax dollars "get" us.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Re: Won what?
[link|http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061127/LOCAL/611270415|http://www.indystar....7/LOCAL/611270415]

"The U.S. Department of Transportation recently reported that 183,234 more fliers suffered mishandled bags in September than did a year earlier -- an increase of 92 percent.
The number of reports per 1,000 passengers was up from 4.56 in September 2005 to 8.25 for September of this year. And that was well before the start of the busy holiday travel season. As many as 25 million people were expected to fly for Thanksgiving.
Valerie Wunder, spokeswoman for US Airways, blames the Aug. 10 ban on most carry-on liquids as the main culprit for the spike in mishandled baggage.
Her airline has seen a 30 percent increase in checked bags since the ban was implemented."
--
Chris Altmann
New Yeah, so?
so 3 more per thousand arrive without baggage and the terrorists have won?

Not hardly.

This simply shows that the airline baggage systems STILL can't handle the volume. The increase in losses is directly correlated to the increase in checked bags.

And US Airways has simply THE WORST baggage handling systems at all of their airports..but Philly in particular is outstandingly bad.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New True only at a very broad level.
Yes... planes go up and come down and they still carry passengers. Broadly speaking, nothing has changed.

At a finer level, there have been some changes:
Item: I didn't used to expect to be abused by a high school dropout to get on a plane.
Item: It didn't used to be any body's business, other than my own, why or where I was going when I traveled.
Item: I used to be able to have normal stuff on my person when I traveled. I put my 4 inch lock blade Swiss army knife on the tray with my keys and change and picked it up on the other side of the scanner. Curiously enough, nobody has noticed that I can take any 0.5mm mechanical pencil and jam it through a carotid artery, eye socket or pretty much any soft place on an irritating person.
Item: When I used to travel, I was respected as a paying customer, whose repeat business was actively sought. Now I seem top be a slab of prosciutto, shut up, don't make eye contact, and get the fuck off my plane when we get there. I've been a happier traveler.

Milages do differ. You probably travel better than I. You probably don't have to suppress your gag reflex when they sing about "the land of the free and the home of the brave" at ball games either. I am disappointed with our society. It will outlast me and disappointment is rarely fatal.
New Re: True only at a very broad level.
Item 1...the folks abusing you are actually more likely to be better educated than before...higher hiring standards by TSA than the rent-a-cop outfits the airlines used to use.

Item 2...so you thought. Airlines were tracking you at least 5 flights back.

Item 3...never carried a 4 inch blade on a plane..pen knife maybe ...and no argument...if I want it I check it. And it is stupid...because they give you a metal fork and spoon in first class and a plastic knife..and now international they knife is standard issue. That is silly.

Item 4...has nothing to do with the government and everything to do with brain dead airline management that thinks you would rather pay $99 and get treated like cattle than to pay 125 and have a pillow, meal and good service. This is something I tell them at every meeting...and I do that alot since its my job.

And you can gag at whatever song you like. In a pure sense you may be right...in a relative sense we still remain exactly that. Look at what the russian gov't STILL is doing to dissenters...or do you think that radiation poisoning was just bad luck.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Some disagreement...
item 1: They didn't use to abuse me unless, for some reason I became a pain in their balls. "Hi, carrying anything deadly? Got guns on you? Cool looking electronic gizmo.. what is it? a computer or something?". Now I FedEx my laptop ahead of me when I travel. And do you know how many more times I've been killed since the bad old times as opposed to the new happy secure times? You can probably guess. I've run into more grues than terriorists in the last 5 years.

Item 2: Most companies do customer profiles. They don't keep personal data for 40 years and use it as a personal metric in society.

Item 3: I just like knives. I got lots of them all over the place. I'm weird. It used to be legal.

Item 4: The point was that they are not reducing weapons. Nobody is ever far from a weapon if they don't wish to be. There will always be a weapon.

Just 'cause Putin can kill his detractors has nothing do do with the discussion of our society. Which I currently feel is sucking.

New Perspective? ___ 'Ask the Pilot'
This Aug. screed pretty well gives one Pro's informed opinion re. then / now and -- apart from the current idiocies of mere 'safety strategy', also dissected -- other social effects as appear to fit into this peripatetic thread (?)

[link|http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/08/25/askthepilot198/| Salon, natch].
Ask the pilot

Nobody needs to actually destroy a jetliner these days to ignite a debilitating plague of panic and foolishness. Case in point: America's airports in August 2006.

By Patrick Smith



Aug. 25, 2006 | Still groggy with our Sept. 11 hangover, and further dazed by events of the past two weeks, we often forget that the history of air crimes goes back nearly as far as the history of aviation itself. The first recorded hijacking -- of a tiny Ford Tri-Motor -- took place in Peru in 1931. The first hijacking of what we'd call a commercial airliner happened in 1948, involving a Cathay Pacific seaplane near Hong Kong. Air piracy was rife by the '60s, and the next three decades were punctuated by numerous deadly takeovers and horrific bombings. Not all air crimes are politically motivated -- the first successful sabotage of a commercial jet involved an insurance scam -- but obviously terrorists and airplanes have shared a [link|http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2004/08/30/terror_history/index.html| long and violent relationship].

Some might wonder: Why the obsession with planes when so many other, less protected targets are available -- shopping malls, movie theaters, subways? There are two main reasons, beginning with the simple fact that airplanes go to where terrorists already are, and/or to places where it's easy for them to operate, the blueprint of Sept. 11 notwithstanding. Seizing or destroying aircraft overseas makes for a simpler job than having to infiltrate and coordinate on your enemy's home soil.

Psychological impact, though, is the bigger reason. Downing a jetliner, that foremost vehicle of international commerce, is a massively symbolic statement. Crashes are automatically high-profile events, even when they're accidents. Throw terrorism into the mix, and you've pushed it to a whole new level of drama. Part and parcel of this, targeting aviation exploits people's innate fears. Rile those fears enough, and you're able to influence entire economies and ways of living. Flying is one of those things we will always be skittish about, no matter how many statistics the experts cite, or how much [link|http://www.askthepilot.com/book.html| knowledge we equip ourselves with]. Try as we might, we'll never be fully comfortable soaring above the earth at hundreds of miles per hour in pressurized tubes. Start knocking those tubes from the sky, and the ripples can be widespread and profound.

Case in point, America's airports in August 2006. We seem to be losing our grip, sliding from a state of reasonable anxiety to one of mass hysteria. At this rate, we're making the task of the terrorist easier by the day; nobody needs to actually destroy a plane anymore to ignite a debilitating plague of panic and foolishness. Merely planning the act is liable to get the job done, encouraging an entire population to act like lunatics, surrender its dignity (and liberties), and squander away millions of dollars.

If you're one of the 21 bomb plot suspects still sitting in British prison right now, it's mission accomplished. No sooner were we told that a London-based conspiracy had come within days of blowing up several jetliners -- an allegation [link|http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/| now subject to doubt] -- when we were hit with a gantlet of preposterous security restrictions and a flurry of overreaction:

[Migawd! he spells 'gantlet' right.]

On Aug. 16, a United Airlines flight en route between London and Washington made an impromptu stop in Boston because a passenger threw an uncontrollable fit. Before being restrained with plastic handcuffs, the 59-year-old woman urinated on the cabin floor, which apparently was reason enough to summon a pair of F-15 fighters to intercept the 767. (She was not the first airline passenger to so relieve herself in an episode of what we used to call "air rage" -- a term that has become almost quaint in the current, overcharged atmosphere.) The aircraft was evacuated on the runway, and passengers were delayed several hours while canine units inspected hundreds of checked bags.

On Aug. 19, a Delta Air Lines jet made an emergency landing in San Antonio, Texas, because -- brace yourselves -- a passenger spent an unusual amount of time in the lavatory. According to flight attendants, the bathroom's ceiling panels had been moved and the smoke detector tampered with. The man, a resident of San Antonio, was detained and questioned -- including a physical search of his home -- before the FBI pronounced him "not suspicious at all." (The decrepit state of lavatories on most U.S. aircraft makes the crew's reaction even more overblown, but that's a topic for another time.)

More toilet trouble that same day, when an American Airlines flight from Dallas to Miami made an emergency stop in Tampa, Fla., after the cabin crew discovered two lavatories with locked doors -- and apparently nobody inside them. Police and TSA officials unlocked the doors and found the bathrooms ... empty.

Details are pending on the case of a Northwest DC-10 that on Wednesday returned to Amsterdam under cover of the Dutch air force. Elsewhere in Europe, a group of passengers were removed from a Monarch Airlines A320 preparing to fly from M\ufffdlaga, Spain, to Manchester, England. On both, other passengers complained about "suspicious" behavior, though in the Monarch case it seems that the only suspicious thing was physical appearance.

These incidents might sound ridiculous, but they're just a sampling of literally hundreds of occurrences worldwide since Sept. 11:

Last December, an America West flight from Phoenix to Boston made an emergency landing because a note was found saying, "Taliban is here." Also that month, a Southwest 737 was evacuated after a passenger was overheard using the word "bomb."

In 2004, a United 747 bound for Los Angeles jettisoned thousands of gallons of fuel into the Pacific and returned to Australia because a discarded airsickness bag was discovered with the letters "BOB" scrawled across it. At its most nefarious, BOB is crew member jargon for "babe on board," but for reasons that defy explanation, the crew mistook the acronym for bomb on board, and went all the way back to Sydney.

In 2002, military fighters were scrambled when a group of karaoke singers were seen chatting excitedly and pointing at the Manhattan skyline from the window of an Air-India 747.

But of more than 2,300 military intercepts of civilian airliners in North American airspace during the past five years, most amusing was the time a pair of F-16s were launched because two British men had been acting suspiciously aboard an American Airlines flight headed to JFK from London's Heathrow Airport. The men were witnessed making repeated, tandem trips to the toilet. Turns out they weren't terrorists, but they were oversexed members of the mile-high club. They also confessed to smoking crack in the lavatory, and were deported back to Britain immediately after landing.

You can't make this stuff up. But while we ought to have our limits, alas the most recent incidents have been, if nothing else, predictable.

Next page: [link|http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/08/25/askthepilot198/index1.html| The "dry run" idea makes no more sense today than it did before]

[. . .]

Equally predictable has been a measure of self-congratulation from assorted pundits and reactionary blabbermouths. The Philadelphia Daily News took the opportunity to publish a page-long opinion piece by conservative talk-show host Michael Smerconish on the virtues of ethnic profiling. London stands as proof that dark-skinned bogeymen are out to get us, and clearly the best way of thwarting them is to employ the one tactic that a majority of security experts believe is [link|http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/06/16/askthepilot190/| ineffective and doomed to failure].

Also reenergized of late is the old "dry run" conspiracy, which holds that packs of evildoers have, for the past few years, been riding around on U.S. jetliners, casing things out in preparation for a future attack. This theory has been with us for a while, jump-started by columnist Annie Jacobsen's eyewitness account from a Northwest Airlines 757 two summers ago. Word of the liquid bomb plot has nourished the contention.

[Much on the 'dry run' hypotheses . . .]

And although there's very little about the London story itself to make the dry-run contention more plausible, it has gained considerable traction. It's bad form, maybe, for a writer to paraphrase himself, but in August 2004, I predicted that by the time the next batch of genuine terrorists struck, whether by airplane, by truck bomb, by submarine or on horseback, this insidious conspiracy theory would retain just enough vaguely rendered credibility to shout, "I told you so." We are hearing that now. Details don't matter, and it's your patriotic duty as an American not to allow logic, facts or clear thinking to dampen the perverse psychodrama of our "war on terror."

Meanwhile, the ultimate and destructive irony is that we've responded to news of the infiltrated terror plot not with increased confidence -- confidence in knowing that most would-be bombers are unskilled fanatics whose plans are prone to failure, and confidence in our abilities to outwit such people -- but with yet more fright and self-defeat.
'Course he's just a pilot, as bemused as the rest of us.. by 'ignorant armies clashing by night: 'twixt bizness, unimaginitive government feel-safe-shows and an easily stampeded mass of customers, many informed by Fox-grade innuendo. Pretty literate, though - ain't he?

Expand Edited by Ashton Dec. 3, 2006, 05:09:14 AM EST
New Umm - I don't check things NOW
AFTER the bastards stole from me.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New HUH???
From the story I posted:

their motor vehicle records


Please explain to me how motor vehicle records are in any way, shape and form "stored by the airline and other parties to the transaction." Which "other parties"? And what specifically about my motor vehicle record is noteworthy for determining my "score"?
lincoln

"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow


Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.


I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States.


[link|mailto:golf_lover44@yahoo.com|contact me]
New What do you use as ID at the airport?
And if not available, passport information is readily available and shared.

Reverse phone lookup is possible with the data in hand.

Expecting that these sources of information will remain separated..even by the "private sector" is just plain silly. Already your credit score is available to damn near anyone that asks...

And your MVS record (DMV, whatever) shows time in state, what state (and that does matter..as it is dead simple to get a license in virginia...and alot harder in NJ for example)...so that answers your question about how that applies to your "score".
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New when I show the ticket counter agent my driver's license
what data from it do they record and store?

Are they not merely accepting a government issued identification as confirmation that I am who I say I am, and thus am the correct person to receive the purchased boarding pass?

I still don't see where my personal driving history has any relevance on my flying "terrorist profile score".
lincoln

"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow


Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.


I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States.


[link|mailto:golf_lover44@yahoo.com|contact me]
New Issuing state and expiration
Part of the profiling. You walk into Philly with a VA issued license and your score goes up a notch. Depending on some other factors, that may single you into a "supplemental screen" in security.

Either the computer does it..or the agent at the head of the line does it.

Trust me, your history of speeding is not what its being used for.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
     U.S. gives fliers secret scores - (lincoln) - (37)
         "would be critically impaired without access..." - (jb4) - (27)
             What privacy? - (bepatient) - (26)
                 Did I say that? No, I didn't. - (jb4) - (25)
                     Not directly but it is only logical conclusion - (bepatient) - (24)
                         Except for the **other** only logical conclusion - (jb4) - (19)
                             Except that.. - (bepatient) - (18)
                                 You may have stumbled onto something there - (hnick) - (17)
                                     It really boils down to the fundamental issue - (bepatient) - (16)
                                         Yepper... - (hnick) - (15)
                                             Every day I work for the government. - (bepatient) - (14)
                                                 My hide has similar gouges - (hnick) - (13)
                                                     Not to mention just plain thievery. - (imric) - (12)
                                                         Dude, if you didn't check it - (bepatient) - (11)
                                                             It's just adding another layer of idiots to the mix. - (hnick) - (9)
                                                                 Won what? - (bepatient) - (8)
                                                                     The situation hasn't changed? - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                                         You aren't looking - (bepatient)
                                                                     Re: Won what? - (altmann) - (1)
                                                                         Yeah, so? - (bepatient)
                                                                     True only at a very broad level. - (hnick) - (3)
                                                                         Re: True only at a very broad level. - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                             Some disagreement... - (hnick) - (1)
                                                                                 Perspective? ___ 'Ask the Pilot' - (Ashton)
                                                             Umm - I don't check things NOW - (imric)
                         HUH??? - (lincoln) - (3)
                             What do you use as ID at the airport? - (bepatient) - (2)
                                 when I show the ticket counter agent my driver's license - (lincoln) - (1)
                                     Issuing state and expiration - (bepatient)
         That's nothing - (tuberculosis) - (8)
             OH MY - (bepatient) - (7)
                 In fact, they are not - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                     Plus, internet retailers can't take our life or liberty... -NT - (Another Scott) - (3)
                         No, but - (jbrabeck) - (1)
                             True. Misuse of private info is bad, no matter who does it. -NT - (Another Scott)
                         Wal-Mart is working on that one. -NT - (pwhysall)
                     Perhaps not big river - (bepatient) - (1)
                         Oh sure - (tuberculosis)

Lather, rinse, repeat.
173 ms