NOW: Sci. Fri. - Richard Dawkins, book: 'The God Delusion'

10/7/06 11:17:14 AM

Some extracts on the BBC site

[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/5372458.stm|http://news.bbc.co.u...night/5372458.stm]

Definitely on the "must read whole" list.

Post #269,967

by a6l6e6x

10/9/06 9:55:47 PM

Amen to that!

Thanks for the link!

Alex

When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis

Post #270,007

10/10/06 4:24:10 PM

Phooey

the extracts make him seem like a real whiner

how about judging science based on Mengele

A

Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
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Post #270,010

10/10/06 4:48:01 PM

Aw, did ver nasty nasty scientist touch a nerve?

I take it you are pick'n'mix Christian?

careful with those mixed fibres now!

Post #270,015

10/10/06 5:50:41 PM

Re: Aw, did ver nasty nasty scientist touch a nerve?

am not now nor have I ever been a Christian

A

Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
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Post #270,016

10/10/06 5:55:47 PM

So what's your point?

Post #270,073

10/11/06 12:09:39 PM

Re: So what's your point?

I looked at the excerpts
He believes that the Bible was written by a varied collection of human
beings and not by God
therefore it is not the word of God
so then if he is trying to be remotely logical he can't
use the Bible to debunk the 'God delusion' as he has already demonstrated
that it is not relevant

of course he does use the Bible for that purpose
so he is really doing nothing more than an ad hominem attack on
those who think differently from him

A

Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
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Post #270,079

10/11/06 2:24:09 PM

Re: So what's your point?

That's a load of toss, Andy.

Post #270,083

10/11/06 5:31:34 PM

Re: So what's your point?

I see why you like him
neither one of you can frame a decent argument

A

Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
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Post #270,084

10/11/06 5:49:11 PM

Re: So what's your point?

Your point is a load of half-coherent bollocks. The person not framing a decent argument is you.

Post #270,100

10/12/06 10:02:33 AM

10/12/06 10:03:11 AM

Oh, really?

if, as your guy asserts, the Bible was written by a variety of human beings at different places and times then it seems fair to say that it is not the revealed word of God

this being so, what relevance does it have to the so-called God delusion

if you want to say, the God of the Old Testament turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt and that's no act of a supreme being

then all you are saying is that you don't believe in that construction

it says nothing about the existence of God

if you want to get up and proclaim that you can prove a negative
and that Godel was wrong then do so

A

Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
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Edited by andread Oct. 12, 2006, 10:03:11 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #270,107

by rcareaga

10/12/06 11:57:27 AM

You misunderstand, I think

While Dawkins happens to be an avowed atheist, he is here addressing the "delusion" rather than the "God" part, pointing out that the various holy texts are largely loads of codswallop, and that whatever value they may have had for human culture times past is increasingly outweighed by their destructive influences today.

I don't read it as an attempt to refute "God" by calling into question the authenticity of the source docs, although it is certainly reasonable to knock them down as proof of the deity's existence whenever (as has been known to happen now and again) they are trotted out as "evidence."

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #270,146

by Ashton

10/12/06 4:16:17 PM

{sigh}

Brevity Award - with karmalized epaulets

And.. may Your Posters prove, retroactively, to have contributed a bit to any coming/improbable small spike of Sanity, next? in the jelloware of The Fatherland's teeming truth-masseuses, way out there.

Post #270,221

10/13/06 10:33:20 AM

Re: You misunderstand, I think

I took your post seriously and went back to the BBC site

quote:

In The God Delusion, the scientist Richard Dawkins sets out to attack God "in all his forms".

quote:

Of course, irritated theologians will protest that we don't take the book of Genesis literally any more. But that is my whole point! We pick and choose which bits of scripture to believe, which bits to write off as symbols or allegories.

The present day athiest argument leaves no room for liberals or moderates (see the writings of Sam Harris for another example)
Either you support 'science' or you're sunk in 'ignorance'

This strikes me as an arrogant attitude and probably 100% science-free

A

Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
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Post #270,223

by Silverlock

10/13/06 10:37:27 AM

Salon interview

Dawkins' latest book turns to his more recent passions. In "The God Delusion," Dawkins fulminates against religious moderates as well as fundamentalists. He argues that the existence of God is itself a scientific conjecture, one that doesn't hold up to the evidence. And he dismisses the entire discipline of theology: "I have yet to see any good reason to suppose that theology (as opposed to biblical history, literature, etc.) is a subject at all."

[link|http://salon.com/books/int/2006/10/13/dawkins/|Link]

-----------------------------------------
Worst President ever.

Post #270,231

by imric

10/13/06 1:00:32 PM

Fundamentalists of all stripes brook no argument

take no prisoners, and if yer aint fer 'em yer agin' 'em.

The anti-god fundies, for example, would prefer to brand anyone who claims a spiritual experience as mentally defective, or corrupt - while the pro-god fundies brand anyone that argues against THEM as morally defective, or corrupt.

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #270,291

by Ashton

10/14/06 2:12:44 AM

Re: Fundamentalists of all stripes brook no argument

Indeed, the militant a-Theist pretends to Gnosticism; becomes equally, the bastard son of Certainty.

As to the 'spiritual' -- undemonstrable as any such an experience would be, beyond the experiencer's jelloware: I note that most non-fulminating assessments of corporate theology (ie. of all organized groups with fav manuals, hierarchy, garb and rituals) - tend to point out that there are many churchly habits that militate against ever experiencing the spiritual - in favor of the adsorption of the Authoritative.

Allegiance to the org. substitutes for experience of the [__].
Only homo-sap could contrive a Living Oxymoron!

No wonder.. it is so rare when anything potentially useful ever gets said, in the usual clashes within the World of Opposites '..as ignorant armies clash by night.'

(At least the ~'agnostic' never pretends to Certainty: a concept which may be prominent on the epitaph of the radioactive ruins, if a dying stonemason has the energy to chisel anything much, after RIP.)

Fortunately, too: it's all in our minds and has nothing much to do with Reality, as in {whew!} :-)

Post #270,262

10/13/06 3:50:36 PM

Re: You misunderstand, I think

What is liberal or moderate about believing in the existence of an omnipotent being which transcends all known laws of physics?

Arrogant, my arse. It's the only sane viewpoint to take.

Post #270,271

by boxley

10/13/06 8:08:53 PM

is there life on other planets?

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep

Post #270,298

by Silverlock

10/14/06 8:22:20 AM

Of course.

As evidence, see Marlowe.

-----------------------------------------
Worst President ever.

Post #270,332

10/14/06 9:31:24 PM

Re: You misunderstand, I think

Well doesn't physics transcend the laws of physics or was Godel wrong

A

PS the Dawkins interview at Salon exposes him thouroughly through his own words

Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
Reggae, African and Caribbean Music
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Post #270,337

by boxley

10/14/06 9:47:32 PM

from string theory to the flying spaghetti monster

Post #270,081

by a6l6e6x

10/11/06 3:09:54 PM

Different strokes for different folks.

You expect people who believe in the Bible to be rational?

The man is just saying the Bible is a "house built on sand".

Alex

When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis

Post #270,019

by boxley

10/10/06 6:27:49 PM

a tad strident dont you think? bizzaro foulwell

Post #270,102

10/12/06 10:48:38 AM

Not at all

Advocates have a need to be louder than the background noise or they wouldn't be heard. Strident would be e.g. a call to those with the means to take out a leading figure of the Rabid Right.

Now that ID has become a US export product and that some are trying their utmost to cement one religion into the EU constition drafts, any ammo that can be used to put a stop to this crowd (and those waving banners for the opposing teams) is welcome.

Post #270,110

by boxley

10/12/06 12:06:31 PM

What makes you think we care about ID?

ID is not a US export, I remember all the movies of my youth where the mere phrase "show me your papers" made a shudder up our collective spine. We all knew that only commie euro countries would dare do such a thing. Hillory Clinton tried to install one in her husbands first term. That is the MAIN reason she will never win the presidency. We have many voters who do not ID and attempts to make them are fought in the courts. Of course someone is trying to put religion in your constitution, its to avoid having Islam as a state religion so you dont all have yer heads chopped off by the surly natives.
thanx,
bill

Post #270,113

by Steve Lowe

10/12/06 12:09:34 PM

uhm, ID in this context is acronym for 'Intelligent Design'

--
Steve
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu]

Post #270,115

10/12/06 12:10:04 PM

Intelligent Design, Bill.

Not ID cards.

Post #270,119

by boxley

10/12/06 12:31:33 PM

whoops, /switch_rant ID is not an American Export

go over to your nearest muslim and tell him his Uncle was a monkey, Take a zippered bag to haul your head back home. ID is a methodology claiming a being created life. As opposed to chemical soup brewing, one is as likely as another.
thanx,
bill

Post #270,121

10/12/06 12:37:09 PM

You believe some silly shit, you really do.

Post #270,304

10/14/06 9:17:02 AM

Unfortunately, it is

A short while ago, the Dutch minister of education tried to introduce ID into the school programs. She was shot down rather quickly, but the propaganda keeps spreading.

(Sorry, couldn't find an english speaking article for now.)

Post #270,306

10/14/06 9:33:10 AM

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance - T. Jefferson.

ID is rather like communism, or [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu|kudzu] - once it gets a strong foothold, it's very hard to uproot. Keep up the fight.

I find it disturbing that the [link|http://www.eternalvigilancesociety.org/|Eternal Vigilance Society] seems to have little understanding of Jefferson. But it's not surprising.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #270,310

by boxley

10/14/06 11:20:09 AM

hey, post the other stuff. I can read most euro/latin

based languages.
thanx,
bill

Post #270,363

10/15/06 8:38:19 AM

Here are some

Text of the speech itself:
[link|http://www.minocw.nl/toespraak/73|http://www.minocw.nl/toespraak/73]
In it she calls for a debate at the scholarly level, but given her political roots and position in the government this was generally interpreted as a prelude to introducing ID in the classroom. A follow-up damage control statement to the press didn't make it much better by failing to dispel this ("changes to the school program are not yet in order")

Dutch mainstream newspaper "De Volkskrant" (critical):
[link|http://www.volkskrant.nl/den_haag/article198440.ece/Minister_wil_debat_over_evolutie_en_schepping|http://www.volkskran...utie_en_schepping]

From the Technical University Delft (critical):
[link|http://www.delta.tudelft.nl/archief/j37/n14/19695|http://www.delta.tud...ief/j37/n14/19695]

And from Katholiek Nieuwsblad (supportive):
[link|http://www.katholieknieuwsblad.nl/actueel22/kn2236b.htm|http://www.katholiek...eel22/kn2236b.htm]
(The Church hierarchy didn't want to touch the subject with a ten foot pole and steered itself well clear of the controversy.)

Most of what I could find follows the same general trend. There isn't much more to it because she didn't get any backup from her own party following the criticism so the thing died quickly.

And then we have "homegrown" comments from [link|http://www.demorgen.be/telex/?news=B348022|Miroslaw Orzechowski], Polands new vice minister of edukayshun, last Saturday... He's one of those pining for the good old days from before the Communists.

(The theory of evolution is "a cowardly opinion of an old, non-believing man" possibly arrived at because "he was a vegetarian and missed an inner spirit".)

Post #270,365

by boxley

10/15/06 9:59:33 AM

evolution is a theory, well founded in research

fruit fly research is extremely well documented. The creationists idealogues cannot understand that. Some evolutionists cannot understand that religion is compatible with evolution. It does belong in a philosophy class at the college level not taught as troot at the highschool biology class.
thanx,
bill

Post #270,338

by drewk

10/14/06 9:54:58 PM

Be careful, they're changing the name again

ID has been getting a bad rap. In particular, it's getting shot down by the courts, who have actually ruled -- I believe this was the USSC that said this -- that ID is just dressed-up creationism.

So they've got a new term: critical analysis. They're not suggesting that anyone teach anything in particular, just teach the kids to critically analyze -- IOW question and doubt -- the evolution they've just been taught.

In the absence of any history, and if we didn't know who was pushing this and what their agenda has been for several decades, what they're saying would make sense. We should always want people to "critically analyze" science. That's how science progresses.

But the people pushing this are the same ones who wrote textbooks about creationism then, when that got shot down, did a global search-and-replace to change "crationism" to "intelligent design" (No, I'm not exaggerating) and put them back in schools.

And of course there's the fact that despite saying that all science should be questioned -- err, I mean "critically analyzed" -- they only seem to make an issue of it when it comes to evolution.

===

Kip Hawley is still an idiot.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #270,340

10/14/06 10:04:20 PM

It was a US District Court ruling that you're thinking of?

[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=238637|#238637].

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #270,347

by drewk

10/14/06 10:16:17 PM

Might have been that one

But the specific quote I remember reading was specifically saying that "Intelligent Design" is a transparent renaming of Creationism, with all the same core principles behind them.

===

Kip Hawley is still an idiot.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #270,348

by imqwerky

10/14/06 10:18:00 PM

10/14/06 10:19:15 PM

Let's boil that down to the root words:

So they've got a new term: critical analysis.

critic and anal

Nuff said.

oops, meant to respond to Drew

Smile,
Amy

[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Amy%20Rathman|Pics of the Family]

Edited by imqwerky Oct. 14, 2006, 10:19:15 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #270,401

by jb4

10/15/06 9:26:37 PM

And you're not even talking about lawyers, either!

jb4
"When the final history is written in Iraq, [link|http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tmate/2006/tmate060926.gif|it'll look just like a comma.]"
— George W. Bush, 24 Sep 06

Post #271,105

10/23/06 8:53:44 PM

Dawkins was on Colbert Report 10/18/2006.

It's being rerun tonight. It's also on [link|http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA9EiSJaXww|YouTube].

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #271,108

by crazy

10/23/06 9:17:25 PM

Very good

Loved the Flying Spaghetti Monster reference.

Post #271,116

by Ashton

10/23/06 10:47:10 PM

He's touring US - was on another brief NPR interview today.

Hmmm [link|http://richarddawkins.net/|http://richarddawkins.net/]
should have an itinerary.

Apparently he was invited to speak in ... MO? KS or at least, a Bible-belt hotspot. Said there were some laughs.. Now *THAT's* a hopeful sign! I'd love to believe that some of these Hooked on ~~Phonics~~ the Fundament folk possess such a thing as a humor gene.

(Alas, it appears that gene shrivels entirely amidst the membership of that Other-One-God. A rilly Bad sign, where there are no Statesmen.)

Hope he makes it in one piece.

Post #271,120