Do we support the right of return for refugees 50 yrs later?

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

Looted booty - paintings, etc., - should be returned to its original owners when possible. As you say, if there's no compensation, then problems can fester.

However, I don't believe - in general - that an unconditional [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return|"right of return"] should exist. Yes, people displaced in war should be able to return to their homes. But how many generations or decades should be allowed to elapse with it in effect? If my great-grandfather owned a farm in Russia that was taken by the Bolsheviks, should I be able to reclaim it? I don't think so. It's obviously especially problematic for Israel and Palestine. There comes a time when people must let the past be the past and move on, IMHO.

Paying limited compensation is a good idea. But deciding the level, who gets it, who pays it ("the USA of course!"), and how it is paid is a terrible Goridan knot - one that's not easily cut. Especially when many people regard land as something that can't be compensated.

Cheers,
Scott.

It exists, as a state, because of the UK and the UN, and lots of support from the US. A chronology is at the [link|http://www.trumanlibrary.org/israel/palestin.htm|Truman Library]. It should exist, and should be at peace with it neighbors.

The birth of al Qaeda in Afghanistan and its hatred of the governments of Saudi Arabia, etc., had nothing to do with Israel. Consider that before arguing that Israel is the primary cause of the problems between the West and the Muslim world. (Yes, it is a significant cause.)

I don't think we should let what was written down in a book thousands of years ago determine the conduct of nations and their peoples. Otherwise, [link|http://www.humanistsofutah.org/2002/WhyCantIOwnACanadian_10-02.html|Why Can't I Own a Canadian?]

IMHO. :-)

Take care.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #263,399 by boxley 8/2/06 10:06:53 AM Reply	Do we support the right of return for refugees 50 yrs later? to that island 90 miles south of florida. Calle Ocho is salivating but I dont see the current crowd occupying the homes are likely to give it up. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #263,404 by JayMehaffey 8/2/06 10:31:20 AM Reply	Depends on what you mean by return Return to Cuba? Sure. Get back the land they had before? That is more questionable. Some sort of accommodation needs to be made, but in many cases there is no way they could be given the land back. But the reality is that how this plays out will depend very much on how things turn out. If an American backed government is forced on Cuba, the American Cubans are liable to get more land and cash, but discover they are now hated in Cuba. If there is a calm transistion to an open democracy, it will be better in the long run. Jay
Post #263,407 by boxley 8/2/06 10:41:49 AM Reply	why do they need an open democracy? Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #263,417 by JayMehaffey 8/2/06 11:41:05 AM Reply	Because they suck But are still better then the alternatives. Jay
Post #263,421 by pwhysall 8/2/06 12:01:37 PM Reply	Is it? Democracy resulted in Hamas being elected. Free'n'fair and all that. Oh, you mean that OTHER democracy, where it means "elect the people the US would like you to elect". Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes! [link\|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall\|A better terminal emulator]
Post #263,435 by jake123 8/2/06 1:11:17 PM Reply	IMhO if Hamas had been handled properly after they won, it would have gone a long way to making them want to stop. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #263,462 by JayMehaffey 8/2/06 3:25:29 PM Reply	No I don't When I say "open democracy" I don't mean "pro-US semidemocracy." Though that is certainly what a large percent of the US amd the current administration thinks it means. If Israel really wanted to get rid of Hamas, the best thing they could have done was give them some money and let them become as corrupt and ineffective as the PA. Jay
Post #263,484 by jb4 8/2/06 4:53:16 PM Reply	That would have required forethought... ...as opposed to foreskin-thought jb4 "So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't." — Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
Post #263,419 by hnick 8/2/06 11:55:07 AM Reply	Keep from being invaded by a sanctimonious neighbor?
Post #263,456 by lincoln 8/2/06 3:03:24 PM Reply	to allow the Fortune 500 companies to go in and give raw capitalism to Cubans, so they can enjoy it just like we do here in the USA. lincoln "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem. I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a *Citizen* of the United States. [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #263,409 by Another Scott 8/2/06 10:52:44 AM Reply	I don't think we should. Nobody can change the past. When change comes to Cuba, I think everything should be regarded as if the present owners/tenants/occupants have all the rights associated with that status. IOW, to the people who fled Cuba: Life is unfair sometimes. Them's the breaks. Nobody is going to wave a magic wand and pretend the Cuban Revolution never happened for you. If you want redress, petition the government, but don't expect Cuba to owe you anything. If you want to return to Cuba, you should expect to do so under the conditions that Cuba sets - we're not going to support some "right of return". My $0.02. Cheers, Scott. (Who would probably apply the same reasoning to similar nationalization/forced-appropriation situations.)
Post #263,412 by folkert 8/2/06 11:03:11 AM Reply	So what do you think about... The fact that Israel should not even exist? Zionists have gone against the word of thier Lord. The lord has said in the Bible that the Children of Israel should be living amoungst the people of the world, not having a singular/central governmental body to "call home" as the only thing they need is the Bible and faith. If Israel didn't even exist, much of the problems in Hezbulah (sp?) wouldn't even exist. The mere fact that we support (as a country or government) Israel and the Zionists that created it, ensures our continued problems with the Muslims and other religions around Palestine. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #263,413 by boxley 8/2/06 11:16:16 AM Reply	greg, can you point out those particular scriptures? I think I missed something the last time I read it. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #263,415 by a6l6e6x 8/2/06 11:26:35 AM Reply	But you have to give Greg credit in seeing your agenda! :) If there is no compensation for confiscation, troubles never end. They can even get violent. Alex When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
Post #263,422 by boxley 8/2/06 12:03:03 PM Reply	I was waiting for a HECK NO followed by WAIT A MINUTE :-) Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #263,427 by Another Scott 8/2/06 12:39:03 PM Reply	There should be limited compensation for confiscation. Looted booty - paintings, etc., - should be returned to its original owners when possible. As you say, if there's no compensation, then problems can fester. However, I don't believe - in general - that an unconditional [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return\|"right of return"] should exist. Yes, people displaced in war should be able to return to their homes. But how many generations or decades should be allowed to elapse with it in effect? If my great-grandfather owned a farm in Russia that was taken by the Bolsheviks, should I be able to reclaim it? I don't think so. It's obviously especially problematic for Israel and Palestine. There comes a time when people must let the past be the past and move on, IMHO. Paying limited compensation is a good idea. But deciding the level, who gets it, who pays it ("the USA of course!"), and how it is paid is a terrible Goridan knot - one that's not easily cut. Especially when many people regard land as something that can't be compensated. Cheers, Scott.
Post #263,420 by Another Scott 8/2/06 12:00:37 PM Reply	Israel doesn't exist because of the Bible. It exists, as a state, because of the UK and the UN, and lots of support from the US. A chronology is at the [link\|http://www.trumanlibrary.org/israel/palestin.htm\|Truman Library]. It should exist, and should be at peace with it neighbors. The birth of al Qaeda in Afghanistan and its hatred of the governments of Saudi Arabia, etc., had nothing to do with Israel. Consider that before arguing that Israel is the primary cause of the problems between the West and the Muslim world. (Yes, it is a significant cause.) I don't think we should let what was written down in a book thousands of years ago *determine* the conduct of nations and their peoples. Otherwise, [link\|http://www.humanistsofutah.org/2002/WhyCantIOwnACanadian_10-02.html\|Why Can't I Own a Canadian?] IMHO. :-) Take care. Cheers, Scott.
Post #263,429 by jb4 8/2/06 12:47:01 PM Reply	jake123 wouldn't like it, that's why! jb4 "So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't." — Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
Post #263,431 by boxley 8/2/06 12:54:43 PM Reply	last thing I need is Jake and Rand camping in my basement demanding decent claret and not getting a dam thing done but kvetch :-) thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #263,436 by jake123 8/2/06 1:14:22 PM Reply	Don't worry I'm quite happy with cheap plonk too. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #263,459 by folkert 8/2/06 3:20:16 PM Reply	Actually, it exists as a state because... (new thread) Created as new thread #263458 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=263458\|Actually, it exists as a state because...] -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.

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