Naw - I think higher prices are good for the economy

Post #255,174 by tuberculosis 5/12/06 1:31:03 AM Reply	Naw - I think higher prices are good for the economy Here's why. Since gas started getting insane, I'm seeing alternative energy sources sprouting like weeds. Just today I saw a couple more wacky looking alternative vehicles on the ferry (new kinds - like a fuselage kind of thing tandem seating). Diesel electric for small boats, bio diesel is showing up at the local pumps, and electrical engineers are smoking Ferraris at the track. The high prices are spurring RnD and this is good news. [link\|http://www.blackbagops.net\|Black Bag Operations Log] [link\|http://www.objectiveclips.com\|Artificial Intelligence] [link\|http://www.badpage.info/seaside/html\|Scrutinizer]
Post #255,184 by pwhysall 5/12/06 2:54:54 AM Reply	"Electrical engineers are smoking Ferrari at the track" No, they're not. The world land speed record for an electric vehicle is a mere 245MPH. That's for a super-specialised car that travels only in a straight line. The driver of a Koenigsegg CCR is the holder of the world's fastest speeding ticket - 242MPH. If you think that high fuel taxes do anything other than punish people for going to work, you're deluded. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #255,200 by Another Scott 5/12/06 8:26:37 AM Reply	There's more to life than top speed. [link\|http://www.gear6.net/2006/05/electric_car_fa.html\|0 - 60 in 3 seconds]. (Yeah, he confuses "faster" with "quicker".) Peter writes: If you think that high fuel taxes do anything other than punish people for going to work, you're deluded. They can have other effects. For instance, too many in the US don't understand that a major part of the reason why we spend [link\|http://www.armscontrolcenter.org/archives/001203.php\|~ $500B] (the total depends on whether you include "supplementals" for Iraq and Afghanistan) a year on our military is because we need to protect the Middle East. This isn't new - look up the Carter Doctrine. Imported oil and gasoline and natural gas are costing the US a lot more than the purchase price. Higher taxes would help pay for those greater costs and help reduce demand (and have other significant benefits). There's no doubt that high prices and increased taxes cause pain for those who have low to moderate incomes. But the most efficient way to get people to change their purchasing decisions is to make them consider the price. Note that road-bound Hummers and so forth weren't created in the UK or Norway - they're a direct result of cheap gas. They're not going to go away unless people stop buying them. The quickest way for that to happen is for people to feel the pain of [link\|http://groups.google.com/group/ca.driving/browse_thread/thread/474b9f5f7f50ef0/5b62dadf31f6747e?lnk=st&q=hummer+h2+fill-up&rnum=3#5b62dadf31f6747e\|$130 fill-ups]. Cheers, Scott. (Who got 47 mpg on his last tank of diesel, and who looks back with fondness at John Anderson's proposal for a $0.50/gal gas tax.)
Post #255,219 by pwhysall 5/12/06 9:18:43 AM Reply	Hummers weren't born in the UK because they simply don't physically fit on the road. Consider Jeremy Clarkson's attempts to drive to the local shop in his Ford GT. It quite simply was too wide to go down the streets. You cannot make me (the UK driver) change my driving habits by making me pay more - if I'm driving to work, it's because it's the only practical method of getting to work. No-one sits in a traffic jam on the M25 at 8AM on a Monday morning because of a lifestyle decision. It's because they can't afford to live close enough to work to take other forms of transport. Taxing the bejesus out of such motorists is, essentially, punishing people for having a job. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #255,220 by imqwerky 5/12/06 9:26:53 AM Reply	It may not stop you from driving, but may spur carpools and other such forms of conservation. It was not suggested that people stop driving, just that people get more creative about consumption when price becomes a concern.
Post #255,222 by pwhysall 5/12/06 9:33:15 AM Reply	No, it won't. It'll simply cause people to vote for whoever isn't planning to hike fuel taxes at the next election. Post hoc rationalisation of the "oh, it'll make people carpool" variety doesn't cut it. Anyone who can carpool[0] probably already is. And what other forms of conservation are we talking about? If you live too far away from work (because you can't afford a house close enough) to take public transport (which is unreliable and dirty), what are you supposed to do? Please don't say cycling. I have a 17-mile commute, and none of it is on roads that are safe for cyclists (unless you consider sharing the road with traffic doing > 70MPH as safe). [0]Carpooling is a giant pain in the arse. I know, I do it. Except I'm the car. My passengers are non-drivers. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #255,228 by jbrabeck 5/12/06 9:53:28 AM Reply	What?!? Except I'm the car. And here I always thought you were a real, flesh and blood, person. [image\|/forums/images/warning.png\|0\|This is sarcasm...] A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)
Post #255,235 by drewk 5/12/06 10:04:42 AM Reply	Cultural blind spot If you live too far away from work (because you can't afford a house close enough) to take public transport (which is unreliable and dirty), what are you supposed to do? For lots of Americans, it would be cheaper to live close to work. Oh wait, they couldn't have their 3,000 sq ft McMansions on the postage-stamp lot for the same price closer in to downtown. Sure, they could get a lovely 2,000 sq ft Victorian with hardwood floors, leaded glass built-ins in the dining room, plaster walls, oak woodwork, right on a bus line to downtown for less than half the cost, but they'd have to live next to those people. We've relied for 50 years on cheap gas to keep building farther and farther from urban cores, until the population is so dispersed that the old urban centers themselves are disintegrating. The rings of suburbs are now becoming dotted with mini-cities, clustered around either late-20th-century office parks or mega-retail centers. But those areas are also becoming urbanized, with the attendant influx of those people. So suburbanites are moving further out, to the exurbs. (Do they even need that term in Europe?) Now we've got people living in "instant towns" on what was farmland one generation back, commuting back-and-forth between widely dispersed commercial centers, and no single "center" of regional employment. As long as gas is cheap, we're going to keep building like this. Someday gas won't be cheap, and we'll be too spread out. We're hosed. </grumpy> === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #255,238 by pwhysall 5/12/06 10:11:53 AM Reply	Blimey. "Exurb" New word of the day! Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #255,258 by drewk 5/12/06 12:14:11 PM Reply	Yup, that's something you missed While you were oohing and ahhing over the "holy shit that's big"-ness of Philly and New York, you missed out on the spectacle of second-generation outer-ring suburbs. American living in five easy steps: City grows up at the intersection of natural trade routes. People with cars and disposable income decide they don't like the congestion of the city and move out to the newly-built bedroom communities. The commute costs more than a monthly bus pass, but not by much. Urban cores are left to industry, offices, and laborers who can't afford to move out. Rush hour is born, as everyone from the suburbs heads into the city in the morning and out to their homes at night. So many people have moved to the bedroom communities that retail and light industry springs up and suburbs are born. Rush hour gets worse as some of the people from eastern suburbs commute to jobs in the western suburbs and vice-versa. Ring roads are invented to alleviate rush hour, but instead get clogged with people from the eastern suburbs getting jobs in the now-accessible northern suburbs, and vice-versa, verse-vica, and etc. Those stuck in the urban core have fewer and fewer jobs to chose from, since public transportation to the suburbs is a non-starter: While there are jobs in the 'burbs, they're so dispersed you can't rely on having a bus stop nearby. Some of them move to public housing units, built on the fringes of the suburbs because the land is still cheaper than downtown. People with cars and disposable income decide they don't like the congestion of the suburbs and move farther out. We don't need that farmland anyway -- gas and diesel are so cheap we can afford to import all our food from Mexico and California. (Is there still a difference? </snide>) The urban core, decimated by three decades of shrinking population -- and the population that's left are the ones who couldn't afford to leave, so are net consumers of public funds -- becomes cheap. Yuppies start moving in and re-habbing the homes built by their great-grandparents' generation. The houses have "great bones", and are close to the remaining jobs. What's not to love? Part of the re-hab includes bars on the windows and security systems -- this is still a bad neighborhood, after all. They love it right up until they get pregnant, then decide they need a Lincoln Navigator and a yard. But the only place with a yard is 40 miles outside of town. If we were exposed to the true cost of gas -- ie: what the rest of the world pays for it -- steps 2 and 4 wouldn't have happened to nearly the degree they have. But now that it has happened, people feel they have "no choice" on step 5, and demand that the government do "whatever it takes" to keep gas prices down. If the tax burden of supporting our Middle East adventures were shifted from the income tax to gas tax, keeping net receipts the same, then people most responsible for the need would be most responsible for the cost. I get 30+ mpg, and I pay just as much for "keeping stability" (chyeah, right) in the Middle East as someone getting 10 mpg. That's fair. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #255,379 by Andrew Grygus 5/13/06 8:32:44 PM Reply	Yes, there is still a difference. " . . Mexico and California. (Is there still a difference? </snide>)" In Mexico all the signs are in Spanish. In California they're in Spanish, Korean, Farsi, Armenian, Chinese, India, Vietnamese and even English. I live in Korea. Friday I did work in Mexico. Today I did my shopping in India, Vietnam and China. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #255,255 by jb4 5/12/06 11:59:15 AM Reply	It translates to "the next town over" becasue there ain't enough romm in Europe for an exurb. jb4 "So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't." — Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
Post #255,377 by lincoln 5/13/06 7:58:38 PM Reply	Baloney For lots of Americans, it would be cheaper to live close to work. Oh wait, they couldn't have their 3,000 sq ft McMansions on the postage-stamp lot for the same price closer in to downtown. Sure, they could get a lovely 2,000 sq ft Victorian with hardwood floors, leaded glass built-ins in the dining room, plaster walls, oak woodwork, right on a bus line to downtown for less than half the cost, but they'd have to live next to those people. In my one and only job where I actually worked downtown, I drove 4 miles to the train station, then rode downtown, after which I walked the final 6 blocks, in all weather, for over a dozen years. Since then, I've lived in one suburb and worked in another. In NONE of these situations could I have taken bus routes and made it to work in less than 2 hours ONE WAY assuming a perfectly met schedule every day. And my wife would not accept moving away from exemplery school systems into towns with lower quality school systems just to shorten my commute. Right now I drive 2/3 of the way to downtown, then head back away for several miles. This is the fastest and most direct way of getting there - and I average 1 hour each way at the beginning of "rush hour" in both the morning and afternoon. With the way Americans are getting laid off right and left every day, no one can plan on having one job downtown, followed by their next one being downtown also. lincoln "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem. I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a *Citizen* of the United States. [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #255,475 by drewk 5/15/06 9:07:50 AM Reply	You just proved my point And my wife would not accept moving away from exemplery school systems into towns with lower quality school systems just to shorten my commute. So there are houses closer to downtown. With the way Americans are getting laid off right and left every day, no one can plan on having one job downtown, followed by their next one being downtown also. And with the jobs having moved out to the suburbs, you're stuck commuting from suburb to suburb. That was my whole point. If all or most of the businesses were still downtown, you could plan on that. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #255,481 by lincoln 5/15/06 11:12:10 AM Reply	Your point was not easily discernible Since the growth in jobs in any major US city has been in its ring suburbs or far collar suburbs for the past few decades, planning on having a job "downtown" has the odds against you. Living in the city in one of your old Victorian houses and commuting to the suburbs every day would accomplish ... what? It would still take time and gas to commute every day. Why would I want to do that? Ideally, I'd live and work in the same suburb, but that's pretty close to living in a fantasy world. As it is, the two times I've worked in this area the companies have been located in a suburb and city where the schools are average and below average, compared to an exemplery rating for the schools where I live now. My job in the city is NOT located downtown, but is a good 15 miles away. Moving closer to work was/is an option, but not a very smart one. lincoln "Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem. I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a *Citizen* of the United States. [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #255,488 by drewk 5/15/06 11:41:58 AM Reply	I wasn't suggesting what we should do now I was saying how we got to the untenable position we're currently in. You're absolutely right that there's no good solution. We got this way through our fanatical reliance on cars. We've been so determined to use our cars for everything that we've built a society that requires cars for everything. The big problems is that even if everyone suddenly agreed that sprawl is bad, how do you reverse it? === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #255,494 by jbrabeck 5/15/06 12:04:24 PM Reply	Example of car "dependence" When I was stationed in Germany. The building I worked in was located at the back of the kasern (post). The officer I worked for lived in officer housing across the street from the entrance to the kasern. She drove daily to work. Entire distance driven? .5 (half) a mile each way. And she wasn't the only one doing so. We, the enlisted, were either bussed (15 minute, 5 mile drive) or walked (1.5 mile using back streets). A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)
Post #255,539 by drewk 5/15/06 4:53:45 PM Reply	I'm not the only one seeing the cycle [link\|http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/dick_feagler/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1147509011181800.xml&coll=2\|Feagler] (You'll need to enter a zip code, birth year and gender.) Things happen, and then they happen all over again. We call it news and often put it on the front page. But news is always just an old story, recycled. We write about the shortage of gas and oil and alternative fuels. We write about finding a new way to do away with gas-guzzling cars. It's the same stuff we were writing about in the '70s. Except now it's now, and now it's worse. ... And now representatives of both political parties are braying the same song they brayed 30 years ago. Thirty years ago. In those 30 years, we have ignored alternative energy. We are still scrabbling for oil in the Middle East. No one from either party has freed us from oil. In the meantime, Brazil has figured out a way to run cars on fuel made from sugar cane. And we're left holding Splenda. And now, it's Groundhog Day again. We have an oil crisis - again. The congressmen are talking about alternative fuels - AGAIN. And nothing much is going to happen - AGAIN. There's one thing he's wrong about, though. Something is going to happen. We're going to pass some more laws to keep the price of gas down. We're going to build further out into the ... gosh I guess we'll need another name past "exurbs". Then we're going to bitch some more about the horrible commute. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #255,544 by folkert 5/15/06 5:51:39 PM Reply	What is wrong with That burb of New York called Los Angeles? Or is that The burb of Los Angeles called New York. Oh wait you are complaining about the Ferry, so it has to be the burb of Los Angeles called Honolulu. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* Freedom is not FREE. Yeah, but 10s of Trillions of US Dollars? SELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0; 0 rows returned.
Post #255,545 by Another Scott 5/15/06 5:58:06 PM Reply	It's all Iraq's fault. [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_babel\|Tower of Babel]. "Can't we all just speak the same language^w^w^w^wget along?" Cheers, Scott.
Post #255,380 by Andrew Grygus 5/13/06 8:40:00 PM Reply	Lancaster. The most ridiculous around here was people buying huge houses way out in Lancaster and working in downtown Los Angeles or Santa Monica. During the week these people literally work, sleep and commute with just a few minutes for supper. Fortunately there's now a Metrolink rail service between nearby Palmdale and Los Angeles and ridership is on the upswing. Of course it's constantly being derailed by suicides and morons but it's still safer than commuting 4 to 6 hours on the freeway while half asleep. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #255,221 by jbrabeck 5/12/06 9:29:51 AM Reply	Not quite If gas were cheap enough, what vehicle would you be driving? Too many 4wd vehicles never need 4wd. Or the land boats. And hummers. Cheap gas, who cares about miles-per-gallon (li/100km). Tax gas high enough, and the commute to work would be in a more fuel efficient vehicle. No one needs a Hummer. Or the UAV. A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)
Post #255,223 by pwhysall 5/12/06 9:38:38 AM Reply	The Usual Stories 4x4s aren't uneconomical per se, and it's disingenuous to wibble about "gas-guzzling 4x4s" when something like an X3 gets similar fuel economy to a regular family saloon. Tax gas high enough, and people will become unemployed. The whole "raise fuel taxes to get people to go to work in bio-diesel powered buses" idea is an attempt to wish things into existence. Joe Schmoe on the M25 in his Pug 205 quite simply cannot afford anything else. LPG cars are expensive. Hybrids are expensive (and crap). No-one needs a Hummer. True. No-one needs a 10mbps internet connection, either. I've got one, though. 4x4s are annoying for a zillion reasons (owned by idiot drivers, can't see over/through them at roundabouts, noisy, ugly) but I wouldn't ever stop someone from owning one. I'd reserve the right to call them a cock for buying such a stupid vehicle, though. Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #255,227 by jbrabeck 5/12/06 9:51:28 AM Reply	Compare the average vehicle In Europe with US. European vehicles are half the size with corresponding better fuel economy. And then compare gas prices. You're paying double or more than what we pay. Who needs a 5.9l vehicle for the 10km drive to work? My little 1.0 li Geo works fine. The people buying the monster vehicles are already paying higher prices for the vehicle. Therefore the arguement that they couldn't afford a vehicle with better fuel economy is hogwash. If we paid the same price for gas that you do, then we would NOT be drivng 3t vehicles that get 10-15 mpg. A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)

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