Alaska is a perfect example of why that doesnt work

Post #255,117 by boxley 5/11/06 4:25:44 PM Reply	Alaska is a perfect example of why that doesnt work Whites are a large majority, natives are a large minority. The white folk actively dislike the native folks. The state lawmakers do their best to ensure that rural non-white alaska gets as few resources as possible. Now having only one congressman to ensure that all Alaskans are represented is currently held by Don Young a man who is married to a native. Once he quits or dies the other folks will get in. He also happens to be a Republican which has the white folk automatically vote for him. The new Senator appointed by her governor dad doesnt really give a rats ass about the rural native population. In states with large minorities an at large seat would have to pander to the majority leading to unfair treatment to the local minorities. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #255,130 by ben_tilly 5/11/06 5:13:17 PM Reply	See Another Scott's comments about DC If you have an at large vote for one spot, then it is just like having a very large district. Same benefits, same problems. But if you have an at large vote for several spots, then large minorities will easily win one or more of those spots. If there are enough spots to vote for, then even small minorities have a good shot at it. I happen to think that that's a good thing. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #255,142 by boxley 5/11/06 6:26:53 PM Reply	must be missing something "But if you have an at large vote for several spots, then large minorities will easily win one or more of those spots. If there are enough spots to vote for, then even small minorities have a good shot at it." if by at large, meaning people accross a geographic area, the majority, not the minority will always get their person. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #255,152 by ben_tilly 5/11/06 7:02:46 PM Reply	Yes, you must :-) For the simplest version, suppose that we have 15 candidates running for 5 spots. And everyone can only vote for one person. Then a candidate that can draw the support of 20% of the population will manage to get a spot. By contrast suppose that we had 5 races with 3 candidates each. Then the candidate who has 20% support across the board doesn't have a hope in hell of winning unless that support is geographically concentrated. Proportionate voting schemes get a lot more complex than this simple one, but the upshot (demonstrated in practice in every country where they are used) is that minorities - even small ones - manage to get represented roughly in proportion to their popular support. The result is that instead of 2 or 3 parties that all look the same, there are many parties, each going after a different demographic. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #255,157 by a6l6e6x 5/11/06 8:50:10 PM Reply	And then you can have NC's 12th Congressional district. It looks like [link\|http://www.senate.leg.state.mn.us/departments/scr/redist/redsum/NCSUM.HTM\|this]. Known as the "I-85 district," the12th stretched 160 miles across the central Piedmont region of the State, for part of its length no wider than the freeway right-of-way. Alex When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
Post #255,163 by ben_tilly 5/11/06 9:29:47 PM Reply	True dat, but... with proportional voting schemes, gerrymandering goes away as an issue. So there is no incentive for creating such weird districts. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #255,159 by boxley 5/11/06 9:06:10 PM Reply	doesnt work that way "For the simplest version, suppose that we have 15 candidates running for 5 spots. And everyone can only vote for one person." that means either the repotard or the demotard depending on the makeup of the demographics of the entire region. Example, the anchorage school district had 7 seats 5 district 2 at large. The 2 at large were all usually the fundie whackjobs which are the largest voting block in the city. The districts were representative of the neighborhoods, fundie whackjobs from the wealthier areas and die hard demos in the poorer minority neighborhoods. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #255,161 by ben_tilly 5/11/06 9:28:23 PM Reply	How many "at large" votes does each person have? If each person has 2, and each party is smart enough to only run 2 candidates, then the party with the most voters will get both slots. But if each person can only vote for one at large position, then the party with an outright majority can't guarantee winning both positions. In this form of proportional voting it is absolutely critical that either each person only have one vote, or that each person can vote multiple times for the same candidate. Otherwise the dynamics change a lot. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #255,201 by boxley 5/12/06 8:29:52 AM Reply	if you have 2 at large seats ya have one vote for both seats way it works here in america is one position, one vote. thanx, bill Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
Post #255,256 by ben_tilly 5/12/06 12:00:35 PM Reply	One vote per seat works IF people are allowed to vote multiple times for the same person. That's not how things are traditionally done in America, though. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #255,257 by jb4 5/12/06 12:07:21 PM Reply	You OBVIOUSLY don't live in Chicago.... jb4 "So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't." — Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
Post #255,208 by drewk 5/12/06 8:48:40 AM Reply	Problem is not enough at -large seats If there's one seat, there's no difference between district and at-large. If there's two seats -- as in your example -- only the top two parties have a chance. Same as we've got now. I don't think the dynamics change significantly until you've got 5 or more at-large seats in one race. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #255,162 by JayMehaffey 5/11/06 9:28:47 PM Reply	Which is why I don't both house to be that way Problems like the one you mention are exactly why I don't want both houses to be proportional distribution. But there are also advantages to a national proportional system. The most important being that it would much better represent the way people actually think, because it would give space for a lot more parties to work in. Jay
Post #255,165 by ben_tilly 5/11/06 9:31:49 PM Reply	Right now neither house has proportional distribution I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

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