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New Regimes, legitimacy, and humanism
(Wherein I once again cast some pearls before some swine, on the off chance that some non-swine may chance by)

As I've stated before, I am a [link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/humanism.html|humanist]. This gives me a premise from which to reason about... oh, anything of real importance. for example, foreign policy.

But before I detail my views on foreign policy, I need to define some more terms.

The United States is often bitterly attacked for meddling in the affairs of other nations. On what grounds? On shifting grounds. I could refute their complaints, but that would just lead us down the [link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/rabbithole.html|rabbit hole]. So let's take it from another angle. Just what stance toward other nations *would* be reasonable?

It depends on what particular other nation you're talking about. For you see, all nations are not equal. Not even close.

What is a nation? In some contexts, [link|http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nation|the word] denotes a tribe or ethnic group. Well, I'll talk about tribalism in some other article. These days the controversy mostly concerns our attacking or deposing "the government of a sovereign state."

Well, what's so special about the government of a sovereign state? The anarchists would say, nothing. But I reject anarchism. I simply don't see it as in humanity's best interests, because it fails to allow for the darker side of human nature. Outside of Utopian fantasies, a state of anarchy is a very unpleasant one, generally ending in an equally unpleasant tyranny. No, thank you.

Remember my humanist principle. That is good which serves human needs and interests. A sovereignty is good to the extend that it serves humanity, and bad to the extent that is it harms humanity. And it should be plainly obvious that not all sovereign governments are equal in this regard.

Let's look at an example. Some very silly - or perhaps disingenuous - people ask, rhetorically, "isn't it hypocritical to deny Iran nuclear weapons when the United States has nuclear weapons?" No, it isn't. And here's why. The united States is a democratic republic. It has popular sovereignty. Well, maybe you don't care for it personally, but it's popular enough. Lots of people here like democracy. Iran does not have popular sovereignty... [link|http://www.iran.org/|yet]. The people of Iran are not seeking nuclear weapons for defend themselves. An Iranian person named Ahmadinejad is seeking nuclear weapons so he can [link|http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1205/krauthammer121605.php3?printer_friendly|wipe Israel off the map] and start Armageddon.

See the difference? No? Well, [link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/rabbithole.html|never mind].

Anyway, I really don't think the present regime of Iran having a nuclear program is in the best interest of humanity.

So, where's the dividing line? I think history has proved, beyond reasonable doubt, that popular sovereignty is better than brute force, that the rule of law is better than the rule of raw power, and that a free society is more likely to be prosperous and peaceful than is an unfree society. A democratic republic, with the rule of law and human rights, such as we have in the West, is a legitimate sovereignty, to be prized above all else. Anything less than this, is less legitimate. A thugocracy, such as the former Ba'athist empire of Saddam Hussein, has no legitimacy or value at all. A murderous dictator has no rights in a humanist system. None at all. It's simply a matter of when we get around to exterminating him. Likewise Kim Kong Il. Likewise the Janjaweed. Likewise the countless tribal warlords in Africa. Likewise Fidel Castro. If they won't grant their subjects and victims basic human rights, why should we have the slightest consideration for them?

Now, it doesn't necessarily follow from this that we should go around toppling the thugocracies of the world. At least, it doesn't necessarily follow from *only* this. More on that in a later post. For now, let's just say this: if we want to remove one of these bastards from power, for any reason, there is no question of the right to do so. You may object on other grounds, but not on grounds of the rights of sovereign nations. From a humanist perspective, that simply doesn't apply.


[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/regimes.html|Angelfire link] (turn off Javascript to avoid popups)

[link|http://marlowe-essays.blogspot.com/2006/05/regimes-legitimacy-and-humanism.html|Comment at blogger.com]

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4 out of 5 Iraqis choose democracy!
If you don't like my posts, don't click on them.
Never mind the AP. Here's the real Iraq reporting: [link|http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/|http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/]
"The period of debate is closed. Arms, as the last resort, decide the contest." - Thomas Paine, Common Sense
New so how do you cast Cheney's remarks about Russia with
do it without sniggering please. Russia wants free market prices for its resources, Cheney wants Russia to Subsidize europe at the same time claiming blackmail. Meantime we are at the UN crying for sanctions against Iran. Pick a side, be consistant but to do that you will have to deny your masters.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Humanism, humanism, humanism . . .
. . suddenly it's humanism all over the place. The water must be getting awfully deep in the bilges of the theocracy to have our Marlowe eyeing the gangplank so openly.

Interesting that he's chosen a name for his self interest that's anathema to his (current) masters, but as things collapse he'll be able to point to "losing sight of the principles of humanism".

Cool dance steps, Marlowe.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Query...
The united States is a democratic republic. It has popular sovereignty. Well, maybe you don't care for it personally, but it's popular enough. Lots of people here like democracy. Iran does not have popular sovereignty... yet [*]. The people of Iran are not seeking nuclear weapons for defend themselves.


First query - how do you know that Iran is not a popular sovereignty?

Because of popularity polls? (Bush is doing wonderfully there, btw).
Because of elections? (What does that say about England....that they're not a popular sovereignty? Would you mind saying that to an average Brit for me?)

You make a statement - that Iran does not have popular sovereignty...but you have provided no evidence to back it up. Whereas I submit to you that any government - ANY government, draws it's power from the people governed.
New Don't bother him/it with facts...
The Program is not set to accept facts from outside.
jb4
"So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't."
Stephen Colbert, at the White House Correspondent's Dinner 29Apr06
New Try a little basic research.
[link|http://www.iran.org/|No, Virigina, there is no popular sovereignty in Iran]

The facts don't confuse *me* in the least.
----------------------------------------------------------------
4 out of 5 Iraqis choose democracy!
If you don't like my posts, don't click on them.
Never mind the AP. Here's the real Iraq reporting: [link|http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/|http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/]
"The period of debate is closed. Arms, as the last resort, decide the contest." - Thomas Paine, Common Sense
New So he references a Maryland based propeganda site . . .
. . the [link|http://www.iran.org/about/|About] page for which is a 404. Maryland is right next to Washington DC and half a world away from Iran.

Maybe your constiuency in Wyoming would believe that sort of site, but I live in Los Angeles and we've got Iranians up the kazoo here. In large chunks of the San Fernando Valley all the signs are in Farsi.

These Iranians are not poor and they're financing political lobying and propeganda mills like this Maryland site. Why? Because these are the folks that were on top under the Shah. They want to get back on top and they want the U.S. to do the dirty work for them.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
Expand Edited by Andrew Grygus May 8, 2006, 08:20:52 PM EDT
Expand Edited by Andrew Grygus May 8, 2006, 09:14:44 PM EDT
New Aww...come on...that site is FUN
You have to dig a little...but it's quite enjoyable.

I love the Books & Articles by Kenneth Timmerman
-- World News Daily -- Nov. 6th 2000, "Experts: Clinton, Gore caused oil to skyrocket" (damn, they ought to see where it is now!)

New Still lost...
I didn't claim they were a democracy. In fact, I alluded that you might want to rethink that only democracies are "popular soveignities" with my England quote.

Can we define popular soveignities? What makes a popular soveignity?

Does an approval rating of 35% make a popular soveignity? Are only soveignites that are elected "popular"? What if they elect a non-popular government?

(And popular to whom?)
New Careful. You'll make his head spin.
Too much unapproved info for a proud member of the 101st fighting keyboardists.
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Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.
New ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #254860 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=254860|ICLRPD]
New what does that site have to with popular sovereignty?
Its just a group of folks deviding up the spoils in advance. No more "factual" than the raza groups deviding up the southwest of the USA on paper. Oh wait, you are learning Spanish arnt you?
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
     Regimes, legitimacy, and humanism - (marlowe) - (11)
         so how do you cast Cheney's remarks about Russia with - (boxley)
         Humanism, humanism, humanism . . . - (Andrew Grygus)
         Query... - (Simon_Jester) - (8)
             Don't bother him/it with facts... - (jb4)
             Try a little basic research. - (marlowe) - (6)
                 So he references a Maryland based propeganda site . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                     Aww...come on...that site is FUN - (Simon_Jester)
                 Still lost... - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
                     Careful. You'll make his head spin. - (Silverlock) - (1)
                         ICLRPD (new thread) - (imqwerky)
                 what does that site have to with popular sovereignty? - (boxley)

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