Really? How so?

Post #25,383 by bepatient 1/23/02 9:21:50 PM Reply	Really? How so? How about taking a stroll over in SouthEast Asia sometimes. Hong Kong, Singapore. Places that make LA look like untouched rain forest. No effort to improve the situation at all. Its not that the "west" is stellar in its improved state...but in comparison, the US seems postively green. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #26,014 by CRConrad 1/28/02 3:00:00 AM Reply	The usual; too much of a "Go Big Corps, Go!" rah-rah. The "they [=big corps] are the ones doing to most to improve the situation" bit -- it sounds almost as if you thought they're doing it all by themselves, outta the goodness o' their hearts. When in reality, as you probably very well know -- only, that never seems to come out the first thing you say, does it? -- they only do the absolute minimum they have to do, forced to do so as they are by the lawmakers. So, is it really the Big Corps "doing the most", or is it the legislative? Could well be argued that the Big Corps aren't "doing" anything at all -- but just stopping doing what they've done so far, i.e, polluting the environment we all have in common. Even the most rigorous laissez-faire reading of Adam Smith doesn't say they're necessarily in the right to do whateverthefuck they want to an atmosphere that isn't theirs to destroy in the first place, does it? I think even ol' Adam hisself, had it been pointed out to him that clean air to breathe isn't necessarily an infinitely self-replenishing good, would agree. Yeah, so the Big Corps are even less reined-in in SouthEast Asia, in places like Hong Kong and Singapore. So what? That still doesn't make the atmosphere that Big Corps have been polluting the private property of those Big Corps, does it? It doesn't make the fact that some of them, forced to do so by new laws, are destrying less of it than they have so far, anything to go all Rah-rah about, does it? But that, a continual Rah-rah "Go Big Corps, Go!" is what most of your posts sound like. Is it that you really believe that, or do you just not know that that's what you sound like? Which is it? Not that I know for sure which would be worse, of course... Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #26,030 by bepatient 1/28/02 9:33:27 AM Reply	Welcome to the big time. The "they [=big corps] are the ones doing to most to improve the situation" bit -- it sounds almost as if you thought they're doing it all by themselves, outta the goodness o' their hearts. No, they're not doing it out of the goodness of their heart. They're responding to the demands placed upon them by their government. In that respect, GP has done alot of good. HOWEVER, GP continues to force their issues on the larger, western companies when what they need to do is attempt to influence the legal system in the countries that are NOT as restrictive as we (US,ECC) are. Big co's in the US now do NOT do the bare minimum that the law requires (by and large...there are exceptions). Most go well beyond what is required. Reason, unlimited liability. It has been shown (asbestos, arsenic, etc...) that what you did 50 years ago you can be forced to pay for now...even if the best information available at the time showed no ill effect from your actions. So while it has been legislation that instigated it, and GP and other environmental groups have done well to influence it...it has become the bottom line that drives it. Sure its not "goodness of heart"...but you knew that already. If it truly is the betterment of the global environment that GP is interested in...it will take information like was given above as affirmation that some improvements are being made...and focus their attention to places where they can really do some good as opposed to places where they can get the most press. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #26,128 by CRConrad 1/28/02 4:51:58 PM Reply	Oh yeah, no disagreement on that score. BeeP: HOWEVER, GP continues to force their issues on the larger, western companies when what they need to do is attempt to influence the legal system in the countries that are NOT as restrictive as we (US,ECC) are. Heck yeah, they're focussing way wrong nowadays, no disagreement there. 'T'was, as I said, just the "tone" of your post (that made it look as if you were saying what it now seems you didn't mean to say) I meant. Big co's in the US now do NOT do the bare minimum that the law requires (by and large...there are exceptions). Most go well beyond what is required. Reason, unlimited liability. It has been shown (asbestos, arsenic, etc...) that what you did 50 years ago you can be forced to pay for now...even if the best information available at the time showed no ill effect from your actions. And marketing; being "green" or "environmentally aware" helps sell stuff, at least in some industries... But then, Big Corps are doing what they're "forced to do by the market", and again not "out of the goodness of their heart". They are, as usual, just looking out for the Holy Bottom Line; if anyone is really "doing" anything, it would have to be the newly "aware" buying public. (And, in your example, the weird USAmerican legal system... :-) If it truly is the betterment of the global environment that GP is interested in...it will take information like was given above as affirmation that some improvements are being made...and focus their attention to places where they can really do some good as opposed to places where they can get the most press. But there, we start to touch upon these "anti-globalization" movements and shit... The next step, in order for the "Third World" to build up clean -- or at least somewhat less dirty -- industry, is that they have a market for the products of that industry. How the fuck are they supposed to be able to afford upgrading to less polluting factories if we in the rich countries erect mile-high tariff walls to keep anything they could produce out of our markets -- and thus also hinder the growth of a middle class in the poor countries that could possibly become a domestic market? So the torch of Protecting The Earth has passed, in some senses, from Greenpeace to those (partly misdirectedly-acting, but basically soundly-motivated) protestors mislabeled "anti-globalists", who AFAICS are just (or at least should be, if they're sensible) saying "Sure, 'globalization' OK, but NOT _J_U_S_T_ on the terms of Big Western Corps!". That's not really "ANTI"-globalization, is it? Just "DIFFERENT" globalization... (Then again, many of those young Western firebrands protesting against the WTO and the World Bank and whatnot, are probably also Greenpeace members, so perhaps the GP's aren't entirely out of touch with this.) Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #26,134 by bepatient 1/28/02 5:06:42 PM Reply	They're an interesting bunch... ...those protestors. Talked to alot of them while they were here for the Rep National Convention. Wasn't hard since one of the streets they were blocking is the one my office is on. There were some truly commited to their cause...well informed...and indeed fun to chat with about issues... there were some who were championing other causes who felt that participating in these demonstrations would bring more attention to there own... and there were some who were getting a free weekender out of it and didn't seem to care one way or the other. There was alot of GreenPeace involvement...and I, too, think there are probably alot of GP membership cards in that group. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]

Welcome to IWETHEY!