Post #251,417
4/8/06 6:46:37 PM
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"Let's roll!"
Ah, it would appear that there's a rapturin' faction in the White House that wants to go double or nuthin': The United States is planning a massive bombing campaign against Iran, including possible use of bunker-buster nuclear bombs to destroy a suspected--but far from proven--nuclear weapons facility, The New Yorker magazine will report in its April 17 issue.
The article is written by famed investigative journalist Seymour Hersh. He writes that, as in Iraq, a driving force in the scenario is "regime change."
One of the options under consideration involves the possible use of a bunker-buster tactical nuclear weapon, such as the B61-11, to insure the destruction of Iran's main centrifuge plant at Natanz, Hersh writes.
This article arrived with the war in Iraq taking another turn for the worse. The American ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad, said in an interview with the BBC that if a unified government was not formed in that country soon, a sectarian war could erupt there and such a war could engulf the entire Middle East.
The Hersh article opens: "The Bush Administration, while publicly advocating diplomacy in order to stop Iran from pursuing a nuclear weapon, has increased clandestine activities inside Iran and intensified planning for a possible major air attack.
"Current and former American military and intelligence officials said that Air Force planning groups are drawing up lists of targets, and teams of American combat troops have been ordered into Iran, under cover, to collect targeting data and to establish contact with anti-government ethnic-minority groups. The officials say that President Bush is determined to deny the Iranian regime the opportunity to begin a pilot program, planned for this spring, to enrich uranium."
Bush and others in the White House have come to view Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a potential Adolf Hitler, Hersh reveals.
A senior unnamed Pentagon adviser is quoted in the article as saying that "this White House believes that the only way to solve the problem is to change the power structure in Iran, and that means war." The former intelligence officials depicts planning as "enormous," "hectic" and "operational."
Hersh writes: "A government consultant with close ties to the civilian leadership in the Pentagon said that Bush was 'absolutely convinced that Iran is going to get the bomb' if it is not stopped. He said that the President believes that he must do 'what no Democrat or Republican, if elected in the future, would have the courage to do,' and 'that saving Iran is going to be his legacy.'
"One former defense official, who still deals with sensitive issues for the Bush Administration, told me that the military planning was premised on a belief that 'a sustained bombing campaign in Iran will humiliate the religious leadership and lead the public to rise up and overthrow the government.'"
But the former senior intelligence official said the attention given to the nuclear option has created serious misgivings inside the military, and some officers have talked about resigning. "There are very strong sentiments within the military against brandishing nuclear weapons against other countries," Hersh quotes the Pentagon adviser.
The adviser warned that bombing Iran could provoke "a chain reaction" of attacks on American facilities and citizens throughout the world and might also reignite Hezbollah: "If we go, the southern half of Iraq will light up like a candle."
A senior Pentagon adviser on the war on terror told Hersh: \ufffdThis White House believes that the only way to solve the problem is to change the power structure in Iran, and that means war.\ufffd The danger, he said, was that \ufffdit also reinforces the belief inside Iran that the only way to defend the country is to have a nuclear capability.\ufffd [link|http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002314390|source] I say, quoting philbot's favorite XXI-century statesman, "Bring 'em on!" Let's get it over with. We're all tired of maintaining the pretense that this predatory empire of ours isn't the scourge of the earth. Let's light up a couple of nukes over Natanz so that we and everyone else can really see our national reflection in a (hot radioactive) glass darkly. rapturously,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #251,433
4/9/06 7:40:49 AM
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That's just -
It's ___
It's not even Wrong, it's -
1) Get those nuke codes away from little-Jesus. NOW. How? 'Impaired Judgment' == Demonstrated. 2) Impeach the entire cabal S.A.P. Why? See above. 3) Plebscite re the restoration of a Republic in these parts. New election.
else -
Back to the streets, For Real.
Hah.. as-if [on that last] Muricans had the guts to do Anything original, even with a zealot racing for National Seppuku, balls out.
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Post #251,434
4/9/06 9:42:15 AM
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Having drawn up *a* plan including X <> Is planning X.
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Post #251,437
4/9/06 10:58:24 AM
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How can you say that? We invaded Canada, right?
Oh, sorry...that was the South Park movie.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #251,441
4/9/06 11:38:47 AM
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Absolutely correct.. There is a problem though...
1) Bush seriously believes that he is legally empowered to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, with absolutely no oversight. 2) Bush has a history of believing in fairy tales and trying to implement same. 3) Bush has absolutely no qualms about starting major wars based on his gut instinct. And he has no sympathy or feelings for those he causes to be killed or mutilated.
Normally, different attack plans would be derived and reviewed as a matter of course. It is a necessary thing; those with the responsibility of answereing the "What can we do?" question must have thought through all possible options. If Bush is putting these plans on the front burner, he needs to be put in a padded room and given a rubber gun to play with. Given his history, he shouldn't be anywhere near the "football".
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Post #251,521
4/10/06 9:24:06 AM
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Or is it?
a sane person 'might' want to have a policy of no first use of nuclear weapons and then would have no need to 'plan' using them
using nukes against _______ would start legitimizing nuke attacks
that could get out of hand quick
A
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link|http://wxxe.org|Tune In]
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Post #251,523
4/10/06 9:38:03 AM
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But these would be *tactical* nukes ... completely different
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #251,524
4/10/06 9:58:02 AM
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and remember, we get a free pass
We're America. We're not bound by the standards by which lesser people are judged. For example: September 1983, USSR downs Korean Air Flight 747, killing all aboard. Act of international barbarism. July 1988, USA downs Iran Air Flight 655, killing all aboard. Regrettable accident and furthermore it was their own damn fault (some interesting background [link|http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Iran+airliner+1986+aegis+frigate&btnG=Google+Search|here]). Nuke Iran? If the President ordains it, it is right and proper. Of course, he'll still scream bloody murder if the Iranians use their new antiship missiles (based on Russian technology, and apparently to the fabled French Exocet "as an F-22 is to a Spitfire") to go turkey-shooting at such fleet assets as we may have left unwisely sitting in the Gulf.
cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #251,687
4/10/06 10:46:29 PM
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Yep, Bush being president is the will of God!
[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]
Just ask him.
Alex
When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
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Post #251,710
4/11/06 7:29:34 AM
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What god, Shiva?
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #251,775
4/11/06 2:09:30 PM
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No, Kali...
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Post #251,750
4/11/06 1:03:59 PM
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Bush or God?
Oh wait...in some people's eyes, there's no difference.
(Well, that's not true.....God can make mistakes.)
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Post #251,436
4/9/06 10:11:49 AM
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Tom Toles: 4/9/2006. A Little Texas Two-Step? 18 kB .img.
[image|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinion/ssi/images/Toles/c_04092006_520.gif|0|A Little Texas Two-Step?|443|520]
Cheers, Scott. (Who doesn't think it's going to happen, but worries about the possibilities.)
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Post #251,454
4/9/06 4:33:34 PM
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The part that worries me
Hersh writes: "A government consultant with close ties to the civilian leadership in the Pentagon said that Bush was 'absolutely convinced that Iran is going to get the bomb' if it is not stopped. He said that the President believes that he must do 'what no Democrat or Republican, if elected in the future, would have the courage to do,' and 'that saving Iran is going to be his legacy.' This worries me, because it is both insane and yet so predictable. The idea that Bush can change his legacy now or that bombing Iran can actually result in a net good in the long run is nuts. And yet it is predictable that Bush desperately wants to avoid being stuck as the president behind the Iraq war disaster and is just smart enough to realize the way to avoid that is something spectacular. He has grasped that the only way to obscure his military failure now is an even greater military success. I'm afraid he is willing to attempt a plan he knows is very risky and could have horrible consequences if it promises a chance of redeeming his reputation, no matter how small. Jay
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Post #251,456
4/9/06 4:59:12 PM
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"Due to the necesarry invasion of Iran which has just . . .
. . begun, it would be extremely unwise for this country to change its leadership at this critical junction. I have, therefore, found it necessary, by Presidential order, to postpone the upcoming presidential elections."
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #251,458
4/9/06 6:01:22 PM
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Not likely
With any other administration I would consider that idea tin foil hat stupidty, with this one I just consider it unlikely because they have not taken the key moves necissary to support such an action. While their unitary executive claims are downright scary, they need a lot more then a thin legal basis to actually take control of the country.
In particular, Bush and cabal have pissed off the upper and mid level of the military. Without support from the military, such a move would fail even if attempted. And if they have been trying to setup a brown shirt organization with Homeland Security, they have failed badly. It is so disorganized that it would be of limited use in trying to control the country.
Jay
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Post #251,467
4/9/06 7:14:39 PM
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Unlikely, yes, but . . .
. . the best insurance against this or similar but less drastic moves is to keep consideration of them clearly in the public eye. That military officers are voicing the likelihood of their resignation if tactical nukes are used against Iran is highly encouraging - and discouraging to illegal moves by the administration.
The Bush administration so completely bungles anything it touches they would have to be able to rely on established structures somewhat insulated from their direct command. If those structures, particularly the military, can not be relied upon, they're stuck.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #251,478
4/9/06 10:04:13 PM
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What is the succession mech of the JCS?
...and what's to prevent the civilian leadership (presumably Rumsfeld) from burrowing through successive layers of principaled men until, Saturday Night Massacre style (Richardson-Ruckelshaus-Bork), a suitably pliant sets of careerists, the "perfumed princes of the Pentagon" so despised by the late David Hackworth, may be found to do the Boy King's bidding and—come to that—attempt to keep the uniformed forces on leash should the junta's usurpation of the Constitution be formalized?
Just wondering of a rainy (so what else is new here on the Wet Coast?) Sunday afternoon.
cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #251,479
4/9/06 10:19:51 PM
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Goldwater-Nichols Act of 1986
[link|http://www.jcs.mil/goldwater_nichol_act1986.html|JCS]: 151. [...]
(b) Function as Military Advisers.
(1) The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is the principal military adviser to the President, the National Security Council, and the Secretary of Defense.
(2) The other members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are military advisers to the President, the National Security Council, and the Secretary of Defense as specified in subsections (d) and (e).
[...]
152. Chairman: Appointment; Grade and Rank
(a) Appointment; Term of Office.
(1) There is a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, from the officers of the regular components of the armed forces. The Chairman serves at the pleasure of the President for a term of two years, beginning on October 1 of odd-numbered years. Subject to paragraph (3), an officer serving as Chairman may be reappointed in the same manner for two additional terms. However, in time of war there is no limit on the number of reappointments.
(2) In the event of the death, retirement, resignation, or reassignment of the officer serving as Chairman before the end of the term for which the officer was appointed, an officer appointed to fill the vacancy shall serve as Chairman only for the remainder of the original term, but may be reappointed as provided in paragraph (1).
(3) An officer may not serve as Chairman or Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff if the combined period of service of such officer in such positions exceeds six years. However, the President may extend to eight years the combined period of service an officer may serve in such positions if he determines such action is in the national interest. The limitations of this paragraph do not apply in time of war.
(b) Requirement for Appointment.
(1) The President may appoint an officer as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff only if the officer has served as
(A) the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff;
(B) the Chief of Staff of the Army, the Chief of Naval Operations, the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, or the Commandant of the Marine Corps; or
(C) the commander of a unified or specified combatant command.
(2) The President may waive paragraph (1) in the case of an officer if the President determines such action is necessary in the national interest.
(c) Grade and Rank. The Chairman, while so serving, holds the grade of general or, in the case of an officer of the Navy, admiral and outranks all other officers of the armed forces. However, he may not exercise military command over the Joint C hiefs of Staff or any of the armed forces.
[...] The JCS serve to advise the President. They don't command the Armed Services. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #251,482
4/9/06 11:28:09 PM
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Re: What is the succession mech of the JCS?
I'm sure Rumsfeld and Cheney could find somebody who would give the orders they want. However, it appears they would have to cut through several layers of command staff and would end up with some totally unknown career staff guy.
Faced with mass defection or removal of the senior staff, I expect the response of the majority of mid level officers would be to order their men back to the barracks until the situation is over.
A much more credible danger is that the neocon cabal around Bush will pick another puppet to replace him. There has been a lot of talk of Cheney stepping aside at some point to let the next annointed one get a head start on the next election. But Bush is so unpopular right now that would be more of a hindrance then a help. More over, as Iraq implodes the entire cabal is coming apart.
Jay
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Post #251,506
4/10/06 7:55:29 AM
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you mean like Tommy Franks?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #251,480
4/9/06 10:35:18 PM
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If we can have an election during the Civil War, we can now.
[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1864|Wikipedia]:
[image|http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/38/%7Eabe2.jpg/300px-%7Eabe2.jpg|0|Copperhead pamphlet of 1864|484|300][image|http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/%7Emccl2.jpg/300px-%7Emccl2.jpg|0|Union party poster for Pennsylvania 1864|393|300]
The election won't be postponed.
Cheers, Scott.
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Post #251,499
4/10/06 7:08:30 AM
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Bird Flu. Terrorism. Leprechauns.
They've floated this boat before. Outrage was subdued.
But relax. It'll be for our own good.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #251,502
4/10/06 7:29:23 AM
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Well, if it comes to leprechauns, they may have a point...
Leprechauns are EVIL...
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Post #251,509
4/10/06 8:16:39 AM
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Yep, almost as bad as clowns
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #251,545
4/10/06 11:04:17 AM
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And puppets! Don't forget puppets!
I'm thinking specifically about two right now...
jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
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Post #251,547
4/10/06 11:13:11 AM
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These?
[image|http://www.bumpinthenightproductions.com/newline2004/taffypuppet.jpg||||]
[image|http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/bunky1.jpg||||]
But actually I find this one more disturbing in its banality:
[image|http://www.letusteachkids.com/puppet/clown.JPG||||]
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #251,576
4/10/06 1:41:25 PM
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No...
I was thinking more like these: [image|http://www.whywehatebush.com/images/bush_red.jpg||||] and [image|http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:TszDq8_Yqlzr4M:pwp.netcabo.pt/pchenriques/oreivainufotos/condoleeza%2520rice.jpg||||]
jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
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Post #251,552
4/10/06 11:48:09 AM
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blade can kick their ass
[link|http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000BO0KOQ/104-3293480-4755957|http://www.amazon.co...4-3293480-4755957] thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #251,554
4/10/06 11:57:43 AM
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You a closet Corey Feldman fan or something?
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #251,566
4/10/06 12:52:58 PM
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Do NOT remind me of him.
[link|http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0101797/|http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0101797/]
Yes, I'm very closely related to the other Walkup in that film... He's my brother.
When somebody asks you to trade your freedoms for security, it isn't your security they're talking about.
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Post #251,587
4/10/06 2:11:20 PM
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Nope own all the puppetmaster flicks
and will own that one now I know they made another one. My 14yo has been collecting those since he was 3yo has the action figures as well. thanx, bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
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Post #251,846
4/11/06 9:01:16 PM
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Well, that may be strike 2
for Mr. Hersh. We'll see in a year or so.
Strike one was the speech about US Army massacring Iraqi security guards and passing them off as dead terrorist - not a whiff of independent verification in a year that passed since.
Oh, btw, talking about "will see in a year"...
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=225499|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=225499]
>>>>>>>>>>> Take a good look at America around you now, because when we emerge from the winter of 2005 - 6, we're going to be another country. The reality-oblivious nation of mall hounds, bargain shoppers, happy motorists, Nascar fans, Red State war hawks, and born-again Krispy Kremers is headed into a werewolf-like transformation that will reveal to all the tragic monster we have become... <<<<<<<<<<<
The winter is over, the US is still pretty much the same. Are you relieved? Disappointer? Or you've forgotten the whole thing?
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179. I will not outsource core functions. -- [link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]
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Post #251,865
4/11/06 11:21:48 PM
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If you think that the US is "pretty much the same",
then you need to go back to you sitcom, dude!
Consider, for a moment [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=251577|this], or [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=251417|this], or even [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=251377|this].
Put down the Kool-Aid, Ark, and try to pay a little bit of attention!
jb4 "Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'." &mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
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Post #252,200
4/14/06 12:44:41 PM
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Oh yes US is indeed the same
Perpetual scandal, dirty politcs, power grabs and creeping violation of the Constitution. Nothing new at all. Certainly nothing new compared to last year.
The posting I was referring to asserted that the chnages will be forced by economics. That completely failed to happen.
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179. I will not outsource core functions. -- [link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]
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