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New the fair tax is more equitable
[link|http://boortz.com/nuze/200412/12102004.html|http://boortz.com/nu...412/12102004.html]
've been collecting questions about and objections to the fair tax. It is amazing how many people don't like the idea because they don't think that the rich will be paying enough in taxes. It doesn't matter that paying taxes will be voluntary under the Fair Tax plan. It doesn't matter that nobody pays the retail sales tax on the basic necessities of life. It doesn't matter that lower income Americans will virtually get a free ride when their entire federal tax liability disappears, including Social Security and Medicare taxes. What does matter? Some people are afraid the evil, hated rich won't pay enough. How dare these people work hard, make good decisions, and save all that money? How dare they achieve that much more than I have? Make 'em pay!

The Fair Tax can overcome a lot of things. I don't know how it can overcome the angry jealousy so many Americans feel toward those who achieved more than they.

thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New The Fair Tax has big problems.
The numbers don't add up.

[link|http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/06/pf/taxes/consumptiontax_0510/|Pat Regnier at CNN/Money]:

Critics claim the FairTax has two major flaws: It wouldn't work in practice and, even if it did, it wouldn't raise enough money. The first problem has to do with the fact that people cheat on their taxes; they do it now, and they'd find ways to do it under a sales tax. With all of the taxes we'd owe being lumped into one big sales tax, lots of people might be tempted to try evading it, with black markets springing up everywhere.

Joel Slemrod of the University of Michigan's Office of Tax Policy Research says that only six countries in the world have tried to collect a sales tax north of 10 percent, and four of them eventually adopted alternatives like a VAT. Consumers might also be unpleasantly surprised by all the things that get taxed: Not just milk at the grocery store, but legal fees, rent on an apartment, even health-care expenses.

[...]

The FairTax bill pegs it at 23 percent in order to fund the government at current levels without raising the deficit. (If you think of the FairTax like a state or local sales tax, you'd say that this is a markup of 30 percent on prices at the store. See the chart above.) But economist William Gale of the Brookings Institution says that this number is way, way too low. "They're telling kind of a big lie about tax reform," he says.

Gale calculates that a 23 percent rate would blow a $7 trillion hole in the budget over 10 years, and that a more realistic rate is 31 percent, and higher still if you allow for evasion. And if lobbyists convince lawmakers to exempt things like health care or other necessities -- a real possibility, given the culture of Washington -- the gap looks even bigger.

FairTaxers respond that Gale isn't taking into account the huge economic growth they believe would occur once the tax system started encouraging investment. And besides, they add, whatever rate you'd pay is comparable to what you now pay. Counting Social Security and payroll taxes, your marginal rate may be north of 30 percent. "To talk about [sales tax rates] independent of what we're currently facing is slightly unprofessional," says Boston University economist and FairTax supporter Laurence Kotlikoff, speaking of Gale.

[...]

So the FairTax is certainly debatable -- fiercely so. But in their book, Linder and Boortz push the argument even further. They make a very big claim that isn't debatable at all. It's just wrong.

The painful truth

Toward the end of The FairTax Book, there's a handy little box summarizing what the authors say will happen if we make the switch to a sales tax. Here are the first three points:

* We start collecting 100 percent of our earnings in every paycheck.

* We all get virtual raises, since payroll taxes are no longer siphoned

From our checks.

* We all start receiving monthly prebates equal to the amount of

Consumption tax we would be expected to pay on life's basic necessities.

This sounds pretty good. Of course, we know that it isn't nearly as big a gift as it seems because we'll have to pay some of it back in taxes when we buy things at the store, right? Er, apparently not. Boortz and Linder write:

* The prices of consumer goods and services remain essentially the same, with the removal of embedded taxes compensating for the added consumption tax.

We'll explain this bit about "embedded taxes" in a moment. But first, let's consider what Boortz and Linder appear to be saying. Prices at the store are the same. Your boss stops taking all that money out of your paycheck. Uncle Sam is sending you money instead. And, oh yeah, the government is still up and running.

This just can't happen. "It is practically and logically impossible for the government be collecting the same amount of money as before and have everyone suddenly be better off," says Daniel Shaviro, a tax law professor at New York University.

Part of the problem is the way Boortz and Linder are using the idea of embedded taxes. In an eight-year-old study paid for by AFFT, Harvard economist Dale Jorgenson noted that because the taxes paid by everyone in the chain of production are embedded in the cost of goods, prices could decline an average of 20 percent if all those taxes were scrapped. The FairTax Book devotes an entire chapter to this idea.

What The FairTax Book fails to mention is that prices can only fall this sharply if companies cut wages. I asked Jorgenson about this, and he agreed. Say your salary is $100,000 a year today, but you take home $80,000 after taxes.

Your company is still paying that extra $20,000. In a FairTax world, it will save that money, and be able to lower its prices accordingly, only if it can reduce your salary to $80,000. In other words, your take-home pay is the same as before. Sure, you'd get to "keep 100 percent of your paycheck," as Boortz and Linder repeatedly write, but it would be a smaller paycheck. That's kind of a big thing to leave out.

I pressed the point with Boortz and Linder. Boortz denies that the book intentionally overpromises. The introduction, he notes, emphasizes that "this book isn't about saving a penny in taxes." But he concedes that the book is confusing about this, and vows to correct it in later printings. Fair enough.

[...]


Emphasis added.

TANSTAAFL.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who needs to work on his taxes...)
New lot of bad assumptions there
Part of the problem is the way Boortz and Linder are using the idea of embedded taxes. In an eight-year-old study paid for by AFFT, Harvard economist Dale Jorgenson noted that because the taxes paid by everyone in the chain of production are embedded in the cost of goods, prices could decline an average of 20 percent if all those taxes were scrapped. The FairTax Book devotes an entire chapter to this idea.

What The FairTax Book fails to mention is that prices can only fall this sharply if companies cut wages. I asked Jorgenson about this, and he agreed. Say your salary is $100,000 a year today, but you take home $80,000 after taxes.
the taxes spoken of in the first paragraph are not the only tsxes paid/collected. prices will decline 20% because the company no longer has to pay its 7.5% of the 15% demanded by Social security, although the company has no obligation to give that to the worker they should return the 7.5 contributed by the worker. so a combination of the Social Security, Medicare (employee does not pay thet) Unemployment insurance and various other taxes royalties and fees collected by the government go directly into the company profit book. Prices will fall as companies are competative. The price with the uniform sales tax will stay the same with variations and bubbles. Spending is what americans do, they will spend enough to make the tax revenue neutral. What does happen is that lobbyists go away, no breaks, no deals. Without lobbyists and fat cats we may get some decent political critters.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Income tax IS a sales tax
Not many think of it that way, but it is.

My wages are my pay for the labour that I sold to a company. A tax is taken out of that pay. That's a tax on the sale of my labour. Therefore it is a sales tax.

:-)

Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New There's more to income than just wages.
Interest on investments, inheritance, etc. I'm sure an arguement can be made for other income forms being actually types of selling but c'mon. It's a stretch.
-----------------------------------------
Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.
New A stretch, but it made you think. :-)
Also if we taxed all sales, would we tax cases where you sold me stock?

Taxing that would destroy financial markets as we know them.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Expand Edited by ben_tilly March 27, 2006, 11:56:16 PM EST
New I still like a flat tax
My idea of a flat tax is somewhat different than others I've seen bandied about. Call it 10%. Total. Every taxing body gets to share some of my 10% tax but 10% is it. City, state fed, whatever. They can fight over my pie. And since a corporation is a "person" in the eyes of our gov, they get a 10% tax also. Total income, no deductions, no depreciation, no loopholes. 10% of ExonMobil's profits last year would go a long way to pay for the war they wanted. And as soon as they move their corporate headquarters to some island with a population of 14,000 people, they get the special foreign sales tax. 10% of any sale of an item sold by a corp with a non-US address.
-----------------------------------------
Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.
New not enough money there, need about 23%
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New 10% tax on profits or income?
[link|http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/30/news/companies/exxon_earns/|CNN]:

For the year the company earned net income of $36.1 billion, or $33.9 billion excluding special items. That's up 31 percent from the $25.9 billion it earned on that basis year earlier.

[...]

While oil and gasoline prices in the fourth quarter were down from the levels seen in September, that barely dented Exxon Mobil's top line. Revenue for the quarter was $99.7 billion, up from $81.9 billion in the year-earlier quarter, and down only 1 percent from the $100.7 billion in revenue in the third quarter. Full-year revenue came to $371 billion, or just over $1 billion a day.


There's an appeal to simplicity in taxing a business's income (it's easier to quantify) than profits, but some businesses have to spend a lot to make a little (e.g. grocery stores, IIRC).

I think business profits (or income) should probably be taxed, if only to keep them from accumulating huge bank accounts that can be used to distort competition (see: Microsoft). But I don't know of a way to do it simply that doesn't punish firms that must sell a lot to clear a little. If it's a tax on profits, then profits must be very carefully and clearly defined. E.g. How does depreciation, investment credits, leases, losses, long-term contracts, etc., etc., get handled?

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who agrees with Box that 10% probably isn't enough, and who should read up on [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAT|VAT] - maybe that's the most transparent way to tax businesses.)
New Pick some other number then
I just pulled that one out of my ass. I'm not in love with it. As for the profits vs income question, if income of wage slaves is taxed, income of corps should be also. The fact that some of these giant multinationals can end up with an effective tax rate of 1 or 2 percent or even get a negative tax at the end of the year is obscene.
-----------------------------------------
Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney. Do it now.
New Really agree with part of that
As for the profits vs income question, if income of wage slaves is taxed, income of corps should be also.
Except that you're looking at it backwards. Corporations deduct the cost of wages from their revenues to get their taxable income, the same way they deduct other expenses. That means the labor they have purchased is a deductable item.

If that's the case, then I should be able to deduct from my taxable income the value of the labor I no longer have. Why, that means I have no taxable income! Only businesses should be paying taxes! Which, until they passed a "temporary" income tax to pay for the civil war, is exactly how it worked.
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     Interesting idea to replace the income tax - (drewk) - (42)
         the fair tax is more equitable - (boxley) - (10)
             The Fair Tax has big problems. - (Another Scott) - (9)
                 lot of bad assumptions there - (boxley)
                 Income tax IS a sales tax - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                     There's more to income than just wages. - (Silverlock) - (6)
                         A stretch, but it made you think. :-) - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                             I still like a flat tax - (Silverlock) - (4)
                                 not enough money there, need about 23% -NT - (boxley)
                                 10% tax on profits or income? - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                     Pick some other number then - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                         Really agree with part of that - (drewk)
         Yeah if you want to stick it to the people -NT - (tuberculosis) - (30)
             DId you read the article? Know what Kunstler is all about? - (drewk) - (29)
                 I'm not against big fuel taxes - (tuberculosis) - (28)
                     No wealth tax either - (bepatient) - (26)
                         Don't agree - (tuberculosis) - (25)
                             Obviously - (bepatient) - (24)
                                 Current admin views it the same way - (tuberculosis)
                                 Did she kill your dog too? -NT - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                     All about her politics -NT - (bepatient)
                                 The Christian/charitable MO would be - - (Ashton) - (20)
                                     Good thing I'm neither, then - (bepatient) - (17)
                                         Re: Shattering huge government... - (jb4) - (3)
                                             exactly like the current crew -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 In my mind worse.... - (Simon_Jester)
                                             While there may be a defense or 2 - (bepatient)
                                         Changeable would be a good change - (tuberculosis) - (12)
                                             You mean, like Al Sharpton? Or Alan Keyes? - (jb4)
                                             What about McCain? -NT - (bepatient) - (10)
                                                 He pissed me off recently. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                     Hadn't heard that - more Hillary than Hillary -NT - (tuberculosis)
                                                     Sounds like - (bepatient)
                                                 I have reservations - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                     You go to elections with the party you've got... -NT - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                                                         and catch a dose of the crap if you're not careful -NT - (tuberculosis)
                                                 we would be in more wars than bush with him, no thanx -NT - (boxley) - (3)
                                                     Why do you say that? - (drewk) - (2)
                                                         need to keep up with your reading :-) - (boxley) - (1)
                                                             Not how I recall his position on Iraq - (drewk)
                                     The quality of mercy - (dmcarls) - (1)
                                         - is particularly strained now, what with all the shouting - (Ashton)
                     Gas Tax + Vehicle Value Tax - (jbrabeck)

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