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New "Presidential candidates should have military experience"
Intriguing suggestion from G. Keillor:
...the great experience that most of us missed out on is the American military, a baseline experience for my dad's generation, the kick in the pants that propels the dreamy adolescent into responsible adulthood. I don't apologize for dodging the draft in the Vietnam years -- there is a time and place for cowardice -- but there was a price to be paid for it: A dreaminess persisted that some sergeant at Fort Leonard Wood might have adjusted.

I met a West Point cadet once, and in her I could see what I'd missed out on, a keenness of focus, a great sense of poise. She embodied the word "capable." I would've followed her into a burning building. Had she skipped the Army and swanned around amongst the perpetual adolescents, she might have missed out on her life entirely.

Whenever I meet military men and women, I'm struck by their bearing and temperament. I sit down to dinner with a Marine captain just back from Iraq and immediately feel a little childish in his presence, though he's 30 years younger. He is friendly, polite and tremendously focused. What might appear at a distance to be rigidity is really heightened attentiveness. Everything he says is appropriate and precise. When you ask about his experience in Iraq, he tells you, without spinning the story. He is no tin soldier, no flag waver. There's no bombast in him. Like dancers, or pilots, or violinists, or lion tamers, he is a man trained to operate consistently at a high level of attention.

As you see the price to be paid for flabbiness and immaturity and narcissism and bad manners and lousy grammar, you appreciate the military more and you ponder the consequences of its isolation in American life. Fewer and fewer of our leaders have military service in their r\ufffdsum\ufffds. They prefer to sweep blithely along from one comfy perch to the next, cushioned in self-regard, promoting, puffing, spinning, hitting their talking points, building their skill sets. They slip into public office without ever having been yelled at by a bullet-headed black man with sergeant's stripes and made to stand up straight in 95-degree weather and march back and forth across a dusty field and not ask why. This is a shame.

...

The Constitution requires the president to be at least 35 and a native-born American. The current president certainly casts doubt on the worth of that native-born requirement, but never mind -- amend the Constitution and let the boys and girls of Harvard and Stanford and Yale ponder their future. You will see the Army become more representative of the country, more middle-class and educated, and when it is, it will not likely be sent so casually off to war as the blue-collar Army has been.
—from [link|http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/02/22/keillor/|salon], of course.

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Starship Troopers redux?

Come on, you know *somebody* was going to say it.

Not saying it as a bad thing, necessarily. There were aspects of the society in the novel that were intriguing.

Cue the Heinlein Flame War!
Tom Sinclair

Harken: Seems odd you'd name your ship after a battle you were on the wrong side of.
Mal: May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.
- "Bushwhacked", Firefly
New Ah. Like both the men the current draft dodger defeated.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Wondering if he felt that way 10 years ago?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Biden shows the next-best thing
Was Biden in the service himself? Can't recall off the top of my head. But the torture hearings showed the benefit of at least having family in the service. It makes it no longer about statistics.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New If a man needs the army to give him discipline and focus...
he should not be a politician because he is not driven enough to be a visionary or leader. Would anybody claim that Mahatma Ghandi was not head of state material?
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Expand Edited by warmachine Feb. 22, 2006, 04:37:02 PM EST
New To every rule there are exceptions
And, much as I hate to say it, Shrub was military, even if he was only a NoGuts, NoGlory, NoGo. He would have met Garrison's minimum of doing basic training.

Now if Garrision means that politicians should have AD (active duty) time, I would agree. It does give one a chance to develop a sense of responsibility.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
New So we should go out and create a state of Perpetual Combat
Just so our Leaders In Training can have "Active Duty Time"?

There's a concept that needs some serious rethinking!
jb4
"Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
&mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
New Well, we have one now...
Until somebody figures out how to defeat an ideology or we run out of non-neo-cons, we have a perpetual war. With absolute power for the goatroper-in-chief, of course, for the duration.
New And we see how well that's working out, don't we?
My point exactly!

I can't wait to see the quality of leaders that emerge from their "Active Duty"!
jb4
"Every Repbulican who wants to defend Bush on [the expansion of Presidential powers], should be forced to say, 'I wouldn't hesitate to see President Hillary Rodham Clinton have the same authority'."
&mdash an unidentified letter writer to Newsweek on the expansion of executive powers under the Bush administration
Expand Edited by jb4 Feb. 22, 2006, 11:49:00 AM EST
New It's cyclic
People who fought in a war, and lost relatives to one, think wars aren't such a good thing. People who didn't fight think they're just fine.

  1. "We must be strong!"

  2. One generation later ...

  3. "It's just not worth it."

  4. One generation later ...

  5. "We must be strong!"

  6. One generation later ...

  7. ...
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New There's a HUGE difference
between Active Duty time and Combat Zone experience.

I did 11 years AD, and 10 years Army Reserve. Closest I ever came to combat was being caught in the middle of a "race riot" while on CP. That and being put on alert for possible deployment during the 10 day war.

I would never advocate CZ experience as a requirement.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
New Bush demonstrates that National Guard improves nothing
As a further illustration, when one of his aides told him of the WTC destruction in that primary school, this supposed, military discipline and focus should have had him reply with orders, such as when he'll hear the full briefing, to ready a public broadcast at a certain time or that those handling the crisis receive full support. As he saw fit, he may or may not have let the children's reading be completed but he didn't even look presidential.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
Expand Edited by warmachine Feb. 22, 2006, 04:55:24 PM EST
New Generalization --- '64 - '72 NG were those looking to avoid
'Nam and was hence called the NoGut, NoGlory, NoGos by all active duty personnel.

It may be better, but I doubt it. Those NG who have been called up for the "war on terriers", will have the AD experience, even if they don't make it into the CZ.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
New If we require military service as a condition of candidacy..
...there will be a branch of the military specifically for "elites", much like the ANG, that our next Shrub will get his 'service' requirements taken care of in.
When somebody asks you to trade your freedoms for security, it isn't your security they're talking about.
New And this elite will be responsible for
Golf course testing.
Movie reviewing.
Customer service testing at local bars.
Ensuring that both teams show up at sporting events.
Matress testing.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
New Are you saying that warfare is the only worthwhile form...
of conflict, for presidential purposes, even compared to other forms of conflict and operations, such as business, law, community projects or regional politics? I would say police work but that could be argued as semi-military.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New Where did I say that?
Active Duty != Combat Zone Duty

NG and Reserves do NOT, normally, get called to Active Duty. Basic Training and schooling does not count. Their (NG/Rsv) time is 1 weekend a month/2 weeks sometime during the year. The '64-'72 NG was a party time weekend for those who were able to get in. Shrub was one of those who got in. I personally knew a lot of them. I was in ROTC before I was declared "not student material" and lost my deferment. I enlisted and went Active Duty and was lucky enough to be sent to Germany instead of 'Nam.

Serving on Active Duty for 3 years (11 in my case) helps one to mature. The realization the you could be sent into a combat zone ('Nam in my case) makes the training more real, and provides the focus and drive.

There is a considerable difference from knowing that the training you are doing will prevent you from dying, prevent your buddy from dying, etc, etc, than learning business law, or politician, or lawyer.

Active Duty teaches you that the decisions you make, the shortcuts you take, could result in the loss of real life, someone you know, maybe even a friend.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
New Should AD be mandatory or a choice for requirements?
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New Would never work as a requirement
Then we would have the "military" running the golf course, state and national parks, and other similiar jobs to create the illusion of military service to those too scared to accept real risk and responsibility.

AD should be a highlighted accomplishment for a politician.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
New Agreed.
[link|http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Issues/amdipl_1/milsvc_II.html|Linky]:

The generation of political figures that reached the White House during the last one-third of the 19th century, with one exception, consisted entirely of veterans with substantial military records. Only the Democrat Grover Cleveland had remained a civilian, even though of military age, during the Civil War (not especially committed to the Union cause, he paid for a substitute to avoid serving). Theodore Roosevelt, an infant during that conflict, rose to the rank of colonel of volunteers as the Rough Rider hero of the Spanish-American War and followed the assassinated McKinley in office in 1901.

After Roosevelt left the Presidency in 1909, the nation experienced a long hiatus in the advent of veterans to America's highest political office. Not until 1945 with the inauguration of Harry S. Truman, a National Guard artillery officer in France during World War I, did a chief executive with a stint in the armed forces again became President. But Truman led off a procession of no fewer than nine Presidents in a row with veteran's status: He was followed by Eisenhower, Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard M. Nixon, Gerald R. Ford, Jimmy Carter, Reagan, and Bush. All but Truman and Carter, the latter a career naval officer from 1947 to the end of the Korean War in 1953, were World War II veterans (Eisenhower also was on active duty as an army officer during the First World War). All but Eisenhower, a long-service West Pointer, held relatively junior rank. All but Reagan saw overseas duty and two -- Kennedy and Bush -- distinguished themselves as junior officers by gallantry in combat.


It's hard to argue that FDR needed military service to have a strong presence or to instill discipline. Similarly, Ford's and Carter's military service didn't seem to enable them to connect with enough people to govern from a position of strength.

It's a bogus argument that Keillor puts forth. While there are good arguments for national service of some sort, requiring a person have "military experience" to be president is a bad idea.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Different issues
Similarly, Ford's and Carter's military service didn't seem to enable them to connect with enough people to govern from a position of strength.
He didn't say it helped them connect with people. He said it seemed to instill a sense of purpose. While I think that can be true, I still think it's much more important that the people sending troops into harm's way feel a personal stake in the outcome. Sons and daughters, friends and neighbors in the military gives you a different outlook.

That's one reason I like the tradtion in the British royal family of military service. I don't know how much those assignments are for real, and how much for show, but they lead to friendships. There's a difference between "send the 4th Regiment" and "send Stephen's regiment".
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
     "Presidential candidates should have military experience" - (rcareaga) - (21)
         Starship Troopers redux? - (tjsinclair)
         Ah. Like both the men the current draft dodger defeated. -NT - (ben_tilly)
         Wondering if he felt that way 10 years ago? -NT - (bepatient)
         Biden shows the next-best thing - (drewk)
         If a man needs the army to give him discipline and focus... - (warmachine) - (16)
             To every rule there are exceptions - (jbrabeck) - (13)
                 So we should go out and create a state of Perpetual Combat - (jb4) - (4)
                     Well, we have one now... - (hnick) - (2)
                         And we see how well that's working out, don't we? - (jb4) - (1)
                             It's cyclic - (drewk)
                     There's a HUGE difference - (jbrabeck)
                 Bush demonstrates that National Guard improves nothing - (warmachine) - (7)
                     Generalization --- '64 - '72 NG were those looking to avoid - (jbrabeck) - (6)
                         If we require military service as a condition of candidacy.. - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                             And this elite will be responsible for - (jbrabeck)
                         Are you saying that warfare is the only worthwhile form... - (warmachine) - (3)
                             Where did I say that? - (jbrabeck) - (2)
                                 Should AD be mandatory or a choice for requirements? -NT - (warmachine) - (1)
                                     Would never work as a requirement - (jbrabeck)
             Agreed. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                 Different issues - (drewk)

There's no wraith like an Old wraith.
109 ms