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New Smash and grab!
Apparently that is what they did. They smashed what they could out of the company and then grabbed whatever they could after selling their stocks via insider trading and then vanished. They did a DB Cooper. Most likely living in Mexico, South American Countries, or even some other third world country with an undervalued currancy where they can live like a King/Queen on the US money they took.

As the Three Stooges said, "Evenryone loves a crook, just nobody loves a crooked crook! If you are going to cheat, cheat fair!"

"In order to completely solve a problem, you must make sure that the root of the problem is completely removed! If you leave the root, the problem will come back later to get you." - Norman King
Expand Edited by nking Jan. 11, 2002, 02:08:50 PM EST
New All that's true, but I'm terribly...
not "disappointed" -- wrong word -- but depressed and unhappy about the media treatment of this.

The Enron case could, if handled even *approximately* correctly, provide a lever to allow us to address a number of IMO structural problems with stock ownership and company direction. I think Marx was, in general, full of shit, but his observations about the "crisis of capitalism" seem to be on the mark; the way around it would be universal stock ownership and free distribution as dividends of the profits.

I definitely agree with the notion of restricting the total amount of any single company's stock -- not just the employer's! -- in a 401(k) plan to 20-25%. That would also lead to the cash-bonus system, because if the employer's stock rises to that amount, the only way to add "matching" contributions would be either cash or stock in a different company. I'd add a requirement that the 401(k) management company and its management team would not be allowed to have a business, contractural, familial, or sexual relationship with anyone on the employer's company's management.

But, while I see discussion of this sort of provision -- some I agree with, some I don't -- on fora such as this, the national media aren't even considering anything substantive. They've all got on their "Get Bush!" t-shirts, and spinning any and every incident into a way to attack the Republicans and the President. This is not to say the Republicans and the President don't need to be attacked, over this or any other issue -- free speech and all that -- but concentrating on that aspect to the exclusion of anything else is going to lose us the opportunity to make badly needed changes, and probably won't even get Bush, since IMO any involvement by the President and his support team in the problems has been minimal and as innocent as any politician can get.
Regards,
Ric
New Share your pain, but pretty much inured by now..
It's as inevitable as.. Monica Lewinsky. Or the missing intern + Evil Pigeon syndrome. It's what our press IS. (And Brit tabloids beat us all hollow: Diana)

I feel similarly re the Ashcroft excesses, though these be taboo for the News Clowns [thanks again PK Dick - for explaining our world to us. RIP]

Every outrage - if large enough - constitutes a brief wake-up of the grazing masses. But yes, it'd be more than nice if.. Enron proved sufficient catalyst for a review of much of Corp Law, based on the realities of today: the power of international Corps to flaunt laws of all nations via strategic location of the er Main Office\ufffd.. and the sweatshops / enviro toxics, and other more subtle ploys.

I expect little of the above to make it through the nightly car-crashes with color pix. Surely you didn't (really) either?


Ashton
blessed are those who expect nothing, for -
New ::sigh:: No, I don't expect
any interruption longer than a few seconds from car crashes and "all news is local". What does bother me is seeing intelligent people (as here [well, there have to be a few :-)] ) wasting time on that glitzy BS rather than keeping their eye on the ball.

Marx was right about a lot of things. I compare him to the physicians he was contemporary to: diagnosis done pretty well, prognosis within tolerance, prescription -- leeches? arsenic cocktails? We have learned a bit, since.

And I'd be prepared to argue that the Corporation -- which is an abstraction, not something concrete -- is the next form of Government, and is in fact the means whereby Marx's prescription could be brought about. Consider: the corporation is not exclusive, and corporations can interpenetrate one another and governments. It's simply more flexible, and flexibility wins over rigidity in most cases. The Workers should own the Means of Production. Well, duh. What's common stock for? The people who invented it weren't thinking that way. They saw it from a different angle, but that doesn't mean what they saw was the entire elephant.

Today's implementations won't get us there, but in many ways the changes necessary to start moving in that direction would be to the advantage of the corporations and their officers, at least at first. If stocks were owned in dribs and drabs by individuals, instead of in huge blocks by speculators and "funds", the stock market would be a lot less volatile -- and the volatility of the stock market is a big contributor to the appallingly short-term attitude of planners. Hey, I've got a suggestion there: No corporation should own voting stock in another. Now there's a reform for ya.

But no, people are focusing on the scandals and getting the money. The original reason Governments allowed Corporations to exist was financial. At the time, no reliable mechanism existed for collecting taxes on large numbers of individuals; the bookkeeping didn't exist. Therefore the Corporation, which collected money from individuals and aggregated it; tax that, the job's easier. As a nice bonus, you could tax people you didn't govern -- if somebody in India bought tea, a bit of that came back to Whitehall when the East India Company filed its tax return. And still today, when it's time to "balance the budget", somebody will always suggest higher corporate taxes, forgetting that every penny the Corporation has came, in the medium and long term, from its customers.

I do not think the current crop of corporate mangers are angels. Quite the contrary; a few of them need to be treated like British admirals pour encourager les autres. But taking the easy target is allowing them to get away with it, and that needs to be talked about. As do many things.

Instead it's car crashes and Get Bush! When they Get Bush and somebody else gets elected, it'll be car crashes and Get Whoever! Ultimately it's f*ing boring.
Regards,
Ric
New Not a bad angle, that
Indeed Corps are less rigid. And it just might be possible to detoxify the inherent sociopathic greed at the upper levels, via truly wise new regulations. Have to ponder that one.. and the current noise level.

Still - that would require interest, will, participation - and finding 2 or 3 actually wise folk: all this against massive and massively funded opposition from the entrenched er leeches. These will kill to keep the hegemony of the few. (Or usually - arrange so that the kids die - for them)

IMhO Marx managed several insightful ideas about 'what folks always do' - expressed as well as anyone ever did. Allow for techno advances? He still got a lot right. From each according to ability; to each according to need, was a fine idea - but only for an actually mature species; a mere hopeful extrapolation towards --> the possible (?) (Roosians never got anywhere near 'communism'! just ~fascist 'socialism' - and the BS taught kids about that all: rivals the Taliban for accuracy).

And so it goes -


A.
still pondering that Good point..
New Marx was innocent
Well, sort of.

Without the exesses of 19th century capitalists, Marx would have been just another loud-mouth poly-sci professor with a meaningless theory.

It takes a pretty bad situation to make Communism look like a step up, or Marxism look like a workable idea.
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"You don't have to be right - just use bolded upper case" - annon.
New Forget Marx, Jesus had it right.
Before Socialism, there is the type of society that Jesus had proposed. The rich helping the poor and giving up their riches to do so. People and Companies not working for profit, but working to do unto others as they would have them do onto them. Which means, spread the wealth around, help out the hungry, the poor, the homeless, the sick, the disabled, etc.

Marx, I assume you meant Karl Marx and not Groucho, Cheeko, Zheppo, or Harpo, but Marx had an idea but poorly executed it and caused more trouble than it fixed. Communism failed because the government forced it to be the only party, and anyone who opposed it was crushed.

Jesus had a better idea of socialism, where the rich volunteered to give away their wealth so they could enter the Kingdom of God. Not all would, but those who didn't had the chance of a Camel passing through the eye of a needle to enter Heaven.

"In order to completely solve a problem, you must make sure that the root of the problem is completely removed! If you leave the root, the problem will come back later to get you." - Norman King
New Equally unrealistic, in a changed world.
The threat of punishment in the afterlife has faded with the credibility of the priesthood. Improvements in communications allow the rich to see there are hundreds of competing priesthoods, each telling a different story with equal conviction. This has resulted in great dilution of the power of the threat of eternal damnation.

Petty crooks are often devout Christians, because Christianity assures them of salvation through "believing in him", which washes away all sins and assures them of entrance into heaven. I can't recall ever meeting a used car salesman who wasn't a comitted Christian. As you move upscale, you find less and less concern about heaven and pretty much total disregard for those at a lower economic level.

THE EYE OF THE NEEDLE. This phrase is commonly misinterpreted as impossibility. The "eye of the needle" referred to the low, narrow, easily defended portal left open at night in city fortifications. A camel could indeed pass through the "eye of the needle", but with great difficulty, shuffling on it's knees. Horses don't do that, so hostile cavelry was pretty much excluded. This was by design.

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Not sure much has changed
The situation where Jesus was preaching was experiencing a decline in the authority of religion as well, in large part because of improved communication technology (That whole post office thing. Sure, it was old news in the core of the Empire, but out in the boonies...) bringing other religious ideas.

The Roman occupation also challenged the rather concrete view of the place of faith. Good was supposed to prosper and evil fail, except for the occasional test, and that was supposed to happen for the most part in this life. And here are these polytheistic Roman occupation forces getting all the goodies while faithful Jews get zilch if they are lucky. So is polytheism good, or Yahweh weak, or did we do something wrong, or what?

I'm not real convinced that things have changed much where it counts. Most people, for most of time, have been aware that there are others with other beleifs. Sure, we have access to more details about exactly what those are, but if you were curious you could almost always go to the next valley and find out. The situation in Europe in the middle ages, with one extremely dominant religion covering pretty much the entire known world, was a bit unusual. There have always been slimy zealots and good people that bad things happen to. People are born, learn that the world beyond Dad's house is scary, learn to deal with that, scrape together their daily bread, eat said bread preferably with friends and family, have sex and realize that there is something quite disturbing about the way the quest for sex transcends reasonable thought and prudence, get sick, die. And worry about all of it, try to fit it into the big story.

I am no smarter than the guys who painted those cave walls 20,000 years ago. And except for ultimately not particulary important details about tools and toys and precise modalities, I'm looking for the same things, doing the same things, worried about the same things. I may not have to worry about predators much, but it never was predators that worried people, but the sudden violent death predators bring. Sudden violent death hasn't gone away. And while it isn't likely that famine will strike my family, I worry about keeping them fed in bad years anyway.
----
"You don't have to be right - just use bolded upper case" - annon.
New Small disagreement
You (nor for that matter, I) may not be any 'smarter' than the lesser members of those tribes whose artists did the drawing - but you are quite less burdened than many - with the freight of accumulated dumbth and the illusion that You Know (all that stuff). Or so it seems.

Anyway, I deem that the Sufis got it right, ~ the wise one can be noticed - s/he is the one who insists that s/he knows little or nothing.

I tend to think that maturity consists in the gradual then accelerated shedding of as much as possible - of most everything we have been 'taught'.

(But then - what do I know? ;-)


Ashton
The Prime Oxymoron: I Am Wise :-\ufffd
New I'm not sure the Roman occupation was anything new to them.
The Roman occupation also challenged the rather concrete view of the place of faith. Good was supposed to prosper and evil fail, except for the occasional test, and that was supposed to happen for the most part in this life. And here are these polytheistic Roman occupation forces getting all the goodies while faithful Jews get zilch if they are lucky. So is polytheism good, or Yahweh weak, or did we do something wrong, or what?


"Occasional" is, I think, a misleading adjective when you take into account the centricity of the Babylonian exile to the Jewish worldview at the time. How many decades did that last? You've got to figure there was a whole host of theo/philosophical explanations for that "test" floating around which then were (re)applied to the Romans. Not to mention that, after the return from the diaspora, things didn't go so easily for them. You get a more wordy feel for this from [link|http://www.jewishgates.org/history/jewhis/exile.stm|this link] (just the first one I found that touched on the subject).
---------------------------------
A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly by the chain of their own ideas;...despair and time eat away the bonds of iron and steel, but they are powerless against the habitual union of ideas, they can only tighten it still more; and on the soft fibres of the brain is founded the unshakable base of the soundest of Empires."

Jacques Servan, 1767
New At times, things went bad
for God's people. God allowed them to be captured, and put into slavery. Some say he allowed this because they disobeyed them. Then he usually sends someone to free them, and they are free again. Jesus was sent to free the Jewish people from not jst Roman rule, but also from the sin they had fallen into from the Roman influence. Well apparently he came for the gentiles as well, after all he did heal a Roman soldier after the soldier's superior asked Jesus too do so. Jesus was also upset about the money changers in the temple and the way the temple was run. The temple had a black list and some people were not allowed to go in, like the sick and the lame, etc. Jesus went out to reach these people to tell them that God had not forgotten about them.

"Will code Visual BASIC for cash."
New Hate to poop on your parade...
THE EYE OF THE NEEDLE. This phrase is commonly misinterpreted as impossibility. The "eye of the needle" referred to the low, narrow, easily defended portal left open at night in city fortifications. A camel could indeed pass through the "eye of the needle", but with great difficulty, shuffling on it's knees. Horses don't do that, so hostile cavelry was pretty much excluded. This was by design.


Turns out that's not quite true, at least according to [link|http://www.wnetc.com/scripture-l/Footnotes/Footnotes2.html|this]...

In fact, if the author is to be believed, it was an attempt by the clergy to hold onto that upper crust that you talk about them losing...

I was about to post the same thing in this thread, and did a google search on it. That's what came up.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New It may be that it doesn't matter, too.
Just this one phrase can launch a PhD thesis or two; add in all the other ones and.. why you could create an entire priesthood! to endlessly reascribe, retranslate and reinterpret every word. And we can all see how silly That would be, now can't we?

Funny how most Sufi sayings are so clear that - you have to work really hard to miss the point being made. Even translated to Engrish.

Wonder why that is?


A.
     Missing - have you seen our executatives? - (Simon_Jester) - (22)
         It was after all, a Texas-sized scam - (Ashton) - (7)
             Well, DoJ will investigate Enron case. - (a6l6e6x) - (6)
                 Don't agree with regulation proposal - (bbronson) - (2)
                     No blackouts on 401K - (Arkadiy)
                     Re: Don't agree with regulation proposal - (a6l6e6x)
                 To harsh - (JayMehaffey)
                 More important is the company match - (bconnors) - (1)
                     Good point! -NT - (a6l6e6x)
         Smash and grab! - (nking) - (13)
             All that's true, but I'm terribly... - (Ric Locke) - (12)
                 Share your pain, but pretty much inured by now.. - (Ashton) - (2)
                     ::sigh:: No, I don't expect - (Ric Locke) - (1)
                         Not a bad angle, that - (Ashton)
                 Marx was innocent - (mhuber) - (8)
                     Forget Marx, Jesus had it right. - (nking) - (7)
                         Equally unrealistic, in a changed world. - (Andrew Grygus) - (6)
                             Not sure much has changed - (mhuber) - (3)
                                 Small disagreement - (Ashton)
                                 I'm not sure the Roman occupation was anything new to them. - (tseliot) - (1)
                                     At times, things went bad - (nking)
                             Hate to poop on your parade... - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                                 It may be that it doesn't matter, too. - (Ashton)

Whosoever shall run XVGA, and cause it to display a multitude of hues, there shall the beaver soon make his home. Let it be written - let it be so.
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