ISPs should be forcibly divested of all non-ISP businesses.

Post #237,943 by inthane-chan 12/13/05 6:07:48 PM Reply	ISPs should be forcibly divested of all non-ISP businesses. I want a line to the internet, and an IP address. That is all. Bundling is anticompetitive bullshit. When somebody asks you to trade your freedom for security, it isn't your security they're talking about.
Post #237,948 by boxley 12/13/05 6:57:01 PM Reply	bundling is not anti competitive If I provide you with a phone, tv, internet and video on demand with the best quality at the best price why go with the other guy. As a provider of all of the above I must have the best networks, best customer service and best competative offer to keep you as a customer. Bundling drives innovation, investment in infrastructure and customer service. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #237,950 by ben_tilly 12/13/05 7:18:50 PM Reply	It can be I direct you to the Microsoft trial. In US law, if you have a monopoly in one area, using bundling to try to leverage that monopoly in another is anti-competitive. If you do not have a monopoly, then you're allowed to bundle to your heart's content in your quest for customers. An economic note. If there are two competitors in the same space, one of whom bundles and the other of whom sells services individually, the predicted result is a disasterous price war between them until one or the other goes out of business. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #237,960 by boxley 12/13/05 8:42:54 PM Reply	situation right now is phone/cable/cellular/wifi all occupying the same space, markets. Example Verizon in Norfolk Virginia vs other operators. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #237,949 by static 12/13/05 7:16:55 PM Reply	There's a better solution. And that is you can't be your own customer if you have competitors. Put another way, if you provide the copper for DSL and lease access to that to ISPs, then you shouldn't own an ISP, either. Or at least, not one that sells DSL access. Wade. "Insert crowbar. Apply force."
Post #237,952 by ben_tilly 12/13/05 7:29:15 PM Reply	Better? Suppose such a law was passed. Suppose that I tried to start a business that was outsourcing, say, database administration. Under your law I could go to virtually any company that had its own DBAs, point out that they were their own customers and by law had to outsource, then offer them a contract. Which would work well for me until someone pointed out to me that my accounting department could be outsourced... Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #237,956 by static 12/13/05 7:45:28 PM Reply	That's taking it further than I had envisaged... But that's good. It means the idea needs work. I was probably trying to make it too terse. For that DBA example, I wouldn't apply such a law because the DBA's services aren't the retail product for a company with it's own DBAs on staff. I would also exclude sole self customer arrangements. So a company that doesn't outsource DBAing on a permanent basis would also be okay on that score. For my DSL example, that means a company can provide a local loop, a DSLAM and an ISP, but their ISP has to be spun off if they ever provide access to other ISPs to the DSLAM. Which might encourage vertical monopolies. Hmm. Wade. "Insert crowbar. Apply force."
Post #237,961 by boxley 12/13/05 8:45:55 PM Reply	Okay who pays for the copper/fibre plants? Why should I give a rats ass if your copper connection is dodgy and all your customers are crying the net is down. I wont sell you my copper and will insist that you pay or I cut you off completely. Since you are Australian I will mention that I am describing the US Bell phone companies here as they used to be. Its much better now. Not good, but much better. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #237,963 by static 12/13/05 9:07:21 PM Reply	They are a special case. Firstly, SLAs should take care of physical quality problems. I say should. Here in Australia, Telstra provides basic DSLAM services and rents them (under the ACCC's orders) to ISPs, including it's own, BigPond. However, they won't sign any SLAs on service, so provisioning happens in Telstra's time. The ISPs make sure you know this is why it takes 2 weeks or more. I'm sure the ISPs would love to have 2 day turnarounds, but unless Telstra will agree to an SLA, they can't get them. Secondly, IMO monopolised cabling infrastucture should be part or wholly owned by a government at the appropriate level (or perhaps a community collective if it's a small enough area), but run as a business. This is especially important where there is a single incumbent and there is no feasible way of generating competition. Such a corporation would not sell services on the copper except perhaps a standard, low-level protocol that all other services build on. Incidentally, that is the general type of solution communications professionals have been advocating ever since the Australian government started privatising our incumbent telco, Telstra. It would keep the physical lines in government hands, where they can make sure everyone in the country has or can get a working circuit, but provides for competition for everything else on top of that, including POTS. Wade. "Insert crowbar. Apply force."
Post #237,965 by boxley 12/13/05 9:13:06 PM Reply	Oh gawd, then the union wars start bloody repo's get elected and start wanting to pay the uniom plant electricians minimum wage. The boyos get hot and electioneer the crap till they get in then its fat contracts for everyone. The repo's lick their woulds and mount a comeback. Meanwhile the physical plant gets run into the dirt. You have certainly read about our ID/evolution schoolboard wars havnt you? Now apply that concept to the telecommunication industry and we will be back to using tin cans and string to phone home. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]

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