iMac rant

Post #23,651 by cforde 1/9/02 2:18:31 PM Reply	iMac rant at the [link\|http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2002/01/09/notes010902.DTL\|SF Gate] Have fun, Carl Forde
Post #23,659 by screamer 1/9/02 3:57:50 PM Reply	Ashton, are you moonlighting? 'Cause I could swear that you were writing that article... :-) Right on the money article. I watched the webcast of the Expo and it's taken me a few days to collect my thoughts enough to write my impressions. The new iMac is substantial technically (wish it were a 133 MHz bus, wish it had USB 2, wish it were a 17 inch monitor, wish it shipped with a two button mouse...), with a flat panel, G4 at 700 to 800 MHz, etc... That didn't "steal" the show for me however. What most struck me was how I can't help but to continue being extremely impressed by Steve Jobs... ala Toffler, he really seems to get it. From Apples "no shit" digital hub strategy (the PC as server), OSX and to the other gizmos he's putting out. But beyond that, when he was playing George Harrison on iTunes, I actually saw the truth. He is the genuine deal... No "ex"-hippy there. He really believes that personal computers can change the world - still. There is a passion in him about "his" company that has been lacking in this industry since, well... since he was forced out of Apple many moons back. Opinions are like ... but I'll stand by my intuition. He is a capitalist, to be sure, but I'm pretty damned sure that it is not his driving motivation. I'm not grabbing a new iMac until USB 2.0 and 133 MHz bus - and yes, different colors (July?), but I will have one. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #23,665 by SpiceWare 1/9/02 4:49:26 PM 1/9/02 4:51:17 PM Reply	How likely is USB 2.0 on a Mac? after all, Intel's pushing it to replace Apple's FireWire. I think my only complaint is the LCD display is only 1024x768. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore Edited by SpiceWare Jan. 9, 2002, 04:51:17 PM EST Expand All History
Post #23,688 by tuberculosis 1/9/02 7:33:10 PM Reply	Who cares? USB sucks. Firewire is the bomb. USB was a quick hack. Firewire was designed to scale up in capacity over time. The music industry is going to replace midi with mLan which is a Firewire based protocal. Lets just scale up firewire instead of forcing us to junk our hardware every year.
Post #23,706 by nking 1/9/02 10:41:11 PM Reply	I care, that's who. If I am to buy an Imac, I'd like it to use the same ports as a PC. USB 2.0 soon will be a standard on new PC Systems. If the PC has it, the Mac should have it. USB has come a long way, and almost everything is USB now, Scanners, Printers, Digital Cameras, PalmOS device docking stations, Joysticks, mice, keyboards, etc. Firewire is nice, but USB has become standard for the PC Market. In fact, wasn't that why they picked it for the iMac? "In order to completely solve a problem, you must make sure that the root of the problem is completely removed! If you leave the root, the problem will come back later to get you." - Norman King
Post #23,708 by Meerkat 1/9/02 10:47:58 PM Reply	Quite the opposite. Firewire is nice, but USB has become standard for the PC Market. In fact, wasn't that why they picked it for the iMac? When the iMac was launched, there was pretty much nothing out there in the way of USB peripherals. Apparently USB was something Intel was keen on getting PC makers to implement for years, but it never happened 'til the iMac popularised/mandatorised* it. * © Language-manglers'R'us... As far as high-bandwidth peripheral connections go, I reckon FireWire has achieved 'critical mass' already. On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #23,775 by nking 1/10/02 1:24:40 PM Reply	You may have a point The iMac used it as a standard and got rid of all legacy ports. Meanwhile in the PC market USB ports were already standard, but legacy ports were included on most PC systems. Why make a USB device when 99% of the PC market still has serial and parallel ports? I think that the iMac was a factor, but not the only factor in getting companies to make USB devices. "In order to completely solve a problem, you must make sure that the root of the problem is completely removed! If you leave the root, the problem will come back later to get you." - Norman King
Post #23,777 by tuberculosis 1/10/02 1:44:02 PM Reply	NextGen Peripherals are going to be FireWire. The ones that need speed that is. The current USB hard drives are painful to use. They are like floppy slow. The firewire drives are a joy by comparison. The iPod dropped into a unique place in the market because it used FireWire to transfer files - the entire iPod can be loaded in seconds with a huge song library. The other mp3 players that used USB take something like half an hour to do the same thing. Firewire has a roadmap that extends to 1600MB/s. USB 2 is 480, Firewire currently runs at 400. I don't need my mouse and keyboard to run any faster. I do want my storage and audio/video devices to run much faster. USB 2 just seems like mud in the water.
Post #23,787 by cforde 1/10/02 2:53:54 PM Reply	Yesterdays technology tomorrow David K. Every has some well argued thoughts on [link\|http://www.mackido.com/Hardware/USB2.html\|USB 2.0]. The [link\|http://www.usb.org/faq/ans2.html#q8\|USB FAQ] is telling too. My uninformed speculation is that USB 2.0 is Intel's way of limiting PPC competition. If they can argue that they have something as good or better than Firewire, and everyone has it, then points for them and against Apple. Plus it gets them out paying royalties to Apple for Firewire ports on their motherboards. Firewire and USB 1.x are already very well established. What compelling reason does a vendor have to take the time and expense to add USB 2.0 support to a product? While USB 2.0 is likely to replace USB 1.x in the long term, I can't see that USB anything will ever supplant Firewire. Have fun, Carl Forde
Post #23,848 by nking 1/10/02 11:28:38 PM Reply	USB and Firewire They are sort of like IDE and SCSI, sure SCSI is faster but IDE is more common and built into most motherboards. I think the fee Apple is charging may scare away most motherboard makers, most likely PC systems will have Firewire via an add on card. "In order to completely solve a problem, you must make sure that the root of the problem is completely removed! If you leave the root, the problem will come back later to get you." - Norman King
Post #23,915 by tuberculosis 1/11/02 12:45:34 PM Reply	The computers aren't driving this Its the periphs. Firewire is appearing on all the new cameras and soon on all the new audio devices. Its going to be the foundation of the new midi standard. If the PC makers want to enable customers to use these peripherals, they'd better add Firewire ports because I don't think Sony is going to put 17 different interfaces on every camera they make. The average hunter gatherer worked 20 hours a week. The average farmer worked 40 hours a week. The average programmer works 60 hours a week. What the hell are we thinking?
Post #23,922 by imric 1/11/02 12:58:31 PM Reply	Firewire? Firewire is appearing on all the new cameras and soon on all the new audio devices Hmmm. I've seen more USB peripherals - but then, only 2 of the 8 machines that are on my home network are Macs... Do you have some examples? Its going to be the foundation of the new midi standard. I'd heard this - and yes, it may drive PC makers to include Firewire... But it may just deepen the 'artist's niche' that Macs have been stereotyped into. A good thing for Apple, but will PC makers try to compete with Apple on it's percieved home turf? Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #23,932 by nking 1/11/02 1:52:25 PM Reply	More USB than Firewire I too have seen more USB than Firewire devices like Digital Cameras, PDAs, Digital Recorders, etc. Maybe one day Firewire will be used more than USB, but so far I haven't seen it as being so yet. "In order to completely solve a problem, you must make sure that the root of the problem is completely removed! If you leave the root, the problem will come back later to get you." - Norman King
Post #23,942 by cforde 1/11/02 2:30:51 PM Reply	Firewire! Broadly speaking USB provides lower cost/low performance data transfer while Firewire provides higher cost/high performance data transfer. In a price sensitive consumer market vendors want the lowest cost option that provides the required feature. For data transfer, that's USB. There are MP3 players available with 5G, and larger, drives. Yes you can fill them using USB but you need to schedule it overnight. Batch jobs just aren't consumer friendly. Apple brought this point home with the new iPod. 5 gigs, 12 minutes. That dramatically improves the usability of the device. And the iPod has shown that consumers are willing to pay for it. I fully expect to see other devices with large data transfer requirements move to Firewire soon. USB will remain for devices with low data transfer requirements. Firewire is not just for artists. Many consumer devices already use it. I'm convinced more will. If the PC makers want to connect to them, they will start including Firewire in the machines. Have fun, Carl Forde
Post #23,950 by SpiceWare 1/11/02 3:06:02 PM Reply	I think he means camcorders? Lots of camcorders have firewire. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #23,954 by imric 1/11/02 3:46:25 PM 1/11/02 3:48:19 PM Reply	Makes sense - I've never owned an actual camcorder, myself, though. Camcorders certainly qualify for the high-data-rate type appliances Carl talked about... Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win. Edited by imric Jan. 11, 2002, 03:48:19 PM EST Expand All History
Post #23,964 by tuberculosis 1/11/02 6:26:48 PM Reply	These! [link\|http://www.orangemicro.com/ibot.html\|http://www.orangemicro.com/ibot.html] [link\|http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0009/20.sony.shtml\|http://maccentral.m...0.sony.shtml] [link\|http://www.dvcentral.org/Reviews/jyvs200u.html\|http://www.dvcentra...yvs200u.html] [link\|http://www.firewireworld.com/news/2000/06/2000613/sonyminidv.shtml\|http://www.firewire...minidv.shtml] The average hunter gatherer worked 20 hours a week. The average farmer worked 40 hours a week. The average programmer works 60 hours a week. What the hell are we thinking?
Post #23,968 by nking 1/11/02 6:36:16 PM Reply	OT your tagline The average hunter gatherer worked 20 hours a week. The average farmer worked 40 hours a week. The average programmer works 60 hours a week. What the hell are we thinking? It was the PHBs that thought we could handle 60 hour workweeks. That was their way of doubling or tripling our workload to do the job of two or three people, which saves the company money but makes our lives as programmers a living hell. "In order to completely solve a problem, you must make sure that the root of the problem is completely removed! If you leave the root, the problem will come back later to get you." - Norman King
Post #23,969 by nking 1/11/02 6:36:49 PM Reply	OT your tagline The average hunter gatherer worked 20 hours a week. The average farmer worked 40 hours a week. The average programmer works 60 hours a week. What the hell are we thinking? It was the PHBs that thought we could handle 60 hour workweeks. That was their way of doubling or tripling our workload to do the job of two or three people, which saves the company money but makes our lives as programmers a living hell. "In order to completely solve a problem, you must make sure that the root of the problem is completely removed! If you leave the root, the problem will come back later to get you." - Norman King
Post #23,990 by imric 1/11/02 9:41:56 PM Reply	All very nice! I'm always in favor of better tech... I can only hope that (technical excellence)=demand... Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #23,762 by screamer 1/10/02 11:51:14 AM Reply	A controlled response... I think a lot of people will care. My current setup includes FW Hard drive and Que!Fire 24X burner, ForMac Studio... That said, much of the lower bandwidth devs such as keyboards, mice, printers (my primary reason for my "request"), scanners, etc... have proliferated and become "dirt cheap" as a result of USB 1.0. I welcome the added bandwidth for these devices... My original statement should probably have prioritized my "wish list". USB 2.0 would have been at the bottom of that list. A larger monitor and different graphics card option is at the very top. I am reasonably confident that the iMac will offer different screen sizes, wireless keyboards, different colors very soon. Perhaps heat concerns have kept the bus speed lower as I doubt that it would be that much more expensive (like the 4X AGP that isn't there). I should have stated, "these are minor nits" and I most probably will continue to buy highly internally expandable beige G4's (for all my ext SCSI devices - need room for the Adaptec, etc...) for my production machine, but my wife and kid (soon to be kids) will be getting an iMac that dad will be using a lot... I have little doubt that this will be a successful product and, if my wish comes true, an excellent reference machine for numerous options and upgrades... They will be ramping up production for the first wave and then modifications should be forthcoming. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #23,701 by Ashton 1/9/02 9:56:30 PM Reply	Only in spirit but thanks for the compliment. It's comforting.. in that ersatz way we settle for, when the real thing is out of grasp - that a few others seem to instinctively grasp the depth of the tawdriness of the billionaire boy-os and their McCrap ventureless copies of each other. Obviously Mark groks to fullness.. So while you're doing that jaded postmodern backstroke of ennui in the cesspool of consumer waste, you might as well pick out a few of the tech gems that insult your taste or bash your intelligence on as few levels as possible. And in this day and warmongering age, the classy new iMac is about as good as it gets. Alas, my guess is that the targets of his barbs are inherently so insouciant and ego-besotted that - each would just buffer his insight as 'envy'. Billy waiting to speak at some show.. behind a translucent screen: a rockin and a rockin. That may say it all: a generation has been morphed into autism like his - lock, $tock and barrel. Guess your point about Steve is becoming more compelling. He at least (I have no doubt) is aware that he has more $$ than anyone sane could ever 'need' - so clearly his motives are far less visible than those of the boring droids. Full-bore acquires new meaning.. (It's sometimes a good idea to replay that video clip of Bally doing his I Love This Company dance.. to feel the full impact of letting inmates run asylums asylii?) Even though I remain practically Apple-iggerant in the details, I've moved it to #1, when I am asked, "what should I buy?" 'Course I explain my direct inexperience, then point them to some good posts at zIWE and elsewhere. Thanks for the treat. Bookmarked - have to check in on him from time to time, if they let him live.. Ashton
Post #23,675 by Meerkat 1/9/02 6:28:49 PM Reply	I love the description "It looks like a big vanity mirror stuck atop a large scoop of white rice" Not that it's something you're too likely to ever see, but the description fits. On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #23,693 by tjsinclair 1/9/02 8:12:25 PM Reply	My favorite paragraph "Other companies claim they innovate. Microsoft claims they innovate. Microsoft lies through their mediocre brutish OS-swiping ham-fisted competition-crushing khaki-loving teeth. And they don't even make computers. In fact, they don't make much of anything they haven't bought, borrowed or outwardly stolen. Just ask the (pre-Ashcroft) Justice Department." He's right about one thing, though. A lot of the passion has been squeezed out of the industry. Tom Sinclair Speaker-to-Suits Many an ancient lord's last words had been, "You can't kill me because I've got magic aaargh." -- Magic armour is not all it's cracked up to be. (Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times)

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