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New Dunno exactly; a bit more Volvos than SAABs, I think.
Ashton writes:
Not owned a Volvo but would be surprised if it's vastly superior at low temps - either in the clockworks / heat&defrost / general handling (?)
Well, since the 850 (the first FWD "real" Volvo), general handling is probably pretty much the same... heat&defrost on both is, as was to be expected, about equal too -- i.e, vastly superior to Dagomobiles from Wop places like Germany... But for "running like clockwork", I get the feeling that Volvo has, and has had, the better reputation. SAAB was catching up, had pretty much caught up, by the late eighties, but since then the introduction of the Vectra-based 900 model (and its successor, the 9-3) has tarnished the image of reliability again.


Still think that C[itroen] was onto something with their inboard front discs = much less unsprung weight. [...] Wonder why no one else did inboard; possibly the width re the new econo-car sizes (?)
Dunno... Could it be just supplier inertia, mutual lock-in? (A la, "There are only external brake assemblies to be bought, so we'll design our next model for them too" -- "Only cars with external brakes are biuilt, so we'll design our next assembly that way too".)

FWIW, at least one manufacturer *did* (does?) build cars with inboard discs: The famous ("As Seen On Virtually Every Hot-Rod From The Seventies And Eighties") Jaguar individually-sprung *rear* axle.

I suppose one determining factor is, you only get that on a *driving* axle: Outside the world of racing, you only put the brakes inboard if there's a (drive) shaft there already; otherwise, it's just cheaper to run the hydraulic lines all the way out to the wheel than to *introduce* a shaft (and, in the case of the steered [i.e, usually, front] wheels, a universal joint etc) solely for the purpose of braking.


Also something sans *$&^$ ABS: anytime I can't outstop that robot, I'll hang it up. (I don't drive on oiled skidpads. Often.)
Then hang it up right now, 'coz you can't.

Really, seriously -- trust me, *nobody* can. To the extent that it isn't used in Formula One, that's because it's (at least partially?) *banned* there -- i.e, if it weren't banned, it *would* be used (more?), because even these guys do better with it than without it. Independent impromptu "tests" by motoring magazines tend to be headlined "Granny Outbrakes ABS-disabled Montoya" or "Old Geezer Driving With Hat And ABS Handily Beats Schumacher Without Either".

And that's on racing tracks, not oiled skidpads.


migawd.. lose all that Saab lore and Start Over? :(
Sure, no problem. It's like bicycling, you know... :-) Or, IOW: Once you've learnt to *learn* one thing, learning the next isn't that big a deal.
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New I could be wrong about *good* ABS, of course.
..and especially on ice or odd terrain. Wasn't impressed with a couple local samples - Saturn, for the worst example.

Also forgot about the 850. Nice but outta my league. As far as I'm concerned, Saab died when Scania lost control of engineering. It's now just another Yuppie toy - sellin the image/sizzle, not the bacon.

Oh well..


Ashton
noticing the rave reviews of the new Hyundai (!!) Elantra HB - apparently caught-up to Japanese construction quality, exc. brakes and lots of well executed details. Even the curmudgeons had only a couple minor nits (front-end styling! Sheesh.)
New newer used car buying advice
If your looking for a newer older car, look in the phone book under car rentals for ads like ugly duckling, take a turkey etc that rent 2 or 3 yr old cars cheap. That will allow you to try the feel of different rigs for a few days to see if it matches. It also allows you to see and feel what the new cars would be like in a few years. A 3 yrold hyundai will let you know what the new one will act and rattle like fairly quickly.
thanx,
bill
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
New Good advice.
Thanks. It may be less telling re Hyundai and 2001-02 models. Being fully aware of the rep of the first ones - they appear to have taken a giant leap in addressing this albatross rep.

Hydraulic motor mounts = hardly an el-cheapo solution to that source of unwanted drummings. Anyway... as I note local taxes and some of the BS like "lettin the customer pay for Advertising !!" (which my car-buyin pro Never will stand for, in the end) - I may end up seeing if the Saab will go on for 30 years, not just 25. Fun..



Ashton
techno is a Drug
     The new whine is out - (boxley) - (59)
         It's a SAAB! ___It's a GM___ It's a - (Ashton) - (58)
             "Viggen", meaning "Thunderbolt" (from Mjolnir). HTH! -NT - (CRConrad) - (1)
                 Thanx; too lazy to look for early Saab brochure.. :( -NT - (Ashton)
             It's a Volvo! ___It's a Ford___ It's a - (a6l6e6x) - (55)
                 {sigh} Murican taste(lessness) has made whores of - (Ashton)
                 NOOOOOOOOO!!! - (inthane-chan) - (53)
                     My sentiments, exactly. - (a6l6e6x)
                     Mitsuoka. - (Meerkat) - (1)
                         Bah humbug - they're deeply "influenced" by Clenet! - (CRConrad)
                     Oh, shaddapayafaces! Ferchrissake, *relax*, guys... - (CRConrad) - (49)
                         Re: Never heard of the S60? - (a6l6e6x) - (3)
                             But then, *why should* anything have "followed" the V70?!? - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                 Re: But then, *why should* anything have "followed" the V70? - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                     Nope, it ain't gonna vanish - not anytime soon, anyway. - (CRConrad)
                         If ya want to do an SUV do it right - (boxley) - (2)
                             No way... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                 6 weber carbs? fsck that, spend all yer time tuning -NT - (boxley)
                         So what do you drive in the snow over there? -NT - (admin) - (41)
                             30-year-old rear-wheel-drive Volvo 142s etc; what else? -NT - (CRConrad) - (40)
                                 Ah... right... -NT - (admin) - (36)
                                     Really, seriously, we do; I remember a statistic... - (CRConrad) - (35)
                                         But how well does a rear-wheel car do in the snow? -NT - (admin) - (19)
                                             with posi rearend much better than front wheel drive - (boxley) - (12)
                                                 That seems counter-intuitive. - (admin) - (11)
                                                     4 wheel drive is geared towards additional traction in deep - (boxley) - (8)
                                                         OK, that makes sense. - (admin) - (7)
                                                             no studs and >1ft snow low subd speeds? All wheel drive -NT - (boxley)
                                                             Tires and Torque. - (Another Scott) - (5)
                                                                 Not necessarily. - (admin) - (4)
                                                                     dumb question, sandbags in the trunk? -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                         Hatchback. - (admin)
                                                                     No it ain't... - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                         Pedantic indeed. - (admin)
                                                     I don't know about 4wd... - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                                                         Doesn't jibe with my experience. - (admin)
                                             If you're used to it (and careful), it's manageable. - (CRConrad) - (5)
                                                 Not the handbrake, remove the ABS fuse - (boxley) - (4)
                                                     "[Y]ou turn the wheel, nothing happens"; y'know what that... - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                         Agreement there - (admin)
                                                         get into a parking lot try it and report back - (boxley) - (1)
                                                             Ah, I see: Good only down to "Slush" on the thermometer! :-) -NT - (CRConrad)
                                         Re: replace his '98 Volvo with? - (a6l6e6x) - (9)
                                             Woo, air-con! - But, I can't afford such a *luxury* car! ;-) -NT - (CRConrad) - (8)
                                                 Air-con not quite a luxury here in .au - (Meerkat) - (7)
                                                     You hardly ever want to accelerate and brake simultaneously. -NT - (CRConrad) - (5)
                                                         True! - (Meerkat) - (4)
                                                             Whatcha driving now, a Jose'? :-) -NT - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                                 Don't spose anyone else calls 'em "spanish cars" - (Meerkat) - (2)
                                                                     Naah, British usage too. - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                                                         Manuel on purpose. I'm just bored at work :) - (Meerkat)
                                                     driving on ice, cars fer let - (boxley)
                                         Volvo:Saab ratio in Finland? - (Ashton) - (4)
                                             Dunno exactly; a bit more Volvos than SAABs, I think. - (CRConrad) - (3)
                                                 I could be wrong about *good* ABS, of course. - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                     newer used car buying advice - (boxley) - (1)
                                                         Good advice. - (Ashton)
                                 Qualifies to be an antique! :) -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                     Sadly, not Over Here; that's pre-1920 or sumthin', IIRC! :-) - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                         here classic is >20 years antique I dunno -NT - (boxley)

In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
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