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New Looks like I hit a nerve!
What I am wondering is exactly how long you can maintain your delusion in the grand new age of US imperialism in the face of staggering military losses and a national economy teetering on the brink of disaster thanks to the current money laundering scheme.

The american public is generally stupid and slow to catch on but they are slowly waking up to facts and this is shown in the current polls.

The world is turning blue my slanderous little coward and you and your kind are going to be banished back to the lunatic fringe where you belong in the next election.

Game (nearly) Over For You.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 12:40:46 PM EDT
New One nit
I wouldn't call the military losses anything near "staggering". Certainly the loss of life is unfortunate (dreadful, unnecessary, criminal etc..), but the fact that the military is actively engaged and suffering less than 20% of the casualty rate of the last significant conflict (VietNam)actually makes this engagement relatively successful from the POV of the military.

Doesn't make it any better from your perspective, I know this. But lets not get out of hand with our adjectives.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New staggering losses
I took this as a reference to the widely observed tendency of mortally wounded soldiers to become briefly unsteady on their pins just before falling.

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New I see
must revise my mental index to change the version of staggering associated with losses.

Usually I had associated your selection with drunk.

Maybe another one of Willy's "new rules"
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Nit again...
you're compairing a war over 25 years ago to a war now? And ignoring Desert Storm and Bosnia and Somolia in the process?

Hell, let's compare Vietnam with WWII? or WWII with the American Civil War while we're at it.


(That said, our losses are WAY overblown)
New Point taken
simply because you understand the point :-)

Level of engagement is necessary and some of those locations simply didn't have a level of engagement to make them a good comparison.

Also, the Vietam comparison is the one drawn upon by the opposition (probably because the others weren't entered into by Rep leadership) so the comparison is simply to point to that and say, "This is nowhere near that level".
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Big nit
Let's review the last hundred years of wars.

WW I, WW II, the Korean War, Vietnam, and Bosnia were all entered into by Democrats. Desert Storm, Somalia, and the present Iraq war were entered into by Republicans.

By that quick count it seems that Democrats are more likely to engage us in wars, and the wars they engage us in on average kill more Americans than the ones that Republicans get us into.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I should know better.
The real point, and I should stick to those around here, I know, was that the common comparison that is being made for this current conflict is Vietnam. And Vietnam it is most defintely not...at least as far as casualty levels are concerned. Its not even close.

I don't really much care for who started it.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Right. Not by a factor of 10.
But as [link|http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/10/20/us-deaths-in-vietnam-and-iraq-by-month/|http://www.lies.com/...nd-iraq-by-month/] points out, casualty rates are higher in Iraq than at the start of Vietnam. (But then again, so are troop levels.)

Either way it is an uglier situation and looks to become uglier still.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New I was talking about monetary cost.
I find $222 billion down the neocon rat hole kind of staggering.

Considering what [link|http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182|else] we might have done with the money (that isn't even ours), its high crimes against the american people.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 12:42:16 PM EDT
New Cost of containment is $380 billion so invading was cheaper
[link|http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:X2NLFDZSzCAJ:gsbwww.uchicago.edu/fac/steven.davis/research/War%2520in%2520Iraq%2520versus%2520Containment,%2520Weighing%2520the%2520Costs%2520(March%25202003).pdf+financial+cost+of+Iraq+Containment+1991+2001&hl=en|http://64.233.161.10...t+1991+2001&hl=en]
of course we are not done yet. At $19 billion a year with expenditures of $190 billion (approximate) thru 2001 I find it reasonable to go in and turn off Sadaam's lights.\\
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Um, box...did you read that article??

  • It's from 2003 (not 4, not 5, 3....)
  • re containment: quote "These resource proved insufficient to enforce UN mandates or, evidently, to prevent Saddam Hussein from continued investments in weapons of mass destruction." (I refuse to comment)
  • We actually did get weapon inspectors into Iraq.
  • That $19 billion assumes a redoubled cost effort. We had results at $10 billion.
  • $390 Billion...do you know how much we've ALREADY paid? Forget the arguments that this was war on the cheap and a mere $20-$30 billion was going to go. The last time (2004) I calculated the cost it was well over $200 billion (and rising). Wait a minute...googling. Current cost: [link|http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182|$307 Billon]

New I hope their analysis is better than their OS analysis.
One of the authors has several other papers on his site [link|http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/fac/steven.davis/research/|here]. One that caught my eye was [link|http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/fac/steven.davis/research/Evolution%20of%20the%20PC%20Operating%20System%20(with%20Jack%20MacCrisken%20and%20Kevin%20Murphy),%20June%201999.PDF|this] one (81 page .pdf) on the evolution of PC OSes from 1999. It might as well have been written by Microsoft:

p.75-76:
The integration of new features and functions into the PC operating system benefits PC users and facilitates innovation in computer applications and technologies through several channels. OS integration makes PCs easier to use and thereby opens the door to new, non-integrated PC products. Integration also simplifies the task of software development, which allows applications developers to concentrate on their areas of expertise and leads to an increase in the number and variety of specialized software applications. OS integration helps promote a standard computing environment and reduce customer support costs. The bundling of software applications and utilities with OS software leads to their wider and cheaper distribution among PC users. Bundling also adds to consumer welfare and economic efficiency by stimulating the development of software applications that would otherwise be unprofitable.

These positive consequences of OS integration generally serve to enlarge the market for PC products, in particular, and computer products, in general. Because scale economies -- declining average costs in development, production and distribution \ufffd are important in the computer industry, these market-enlarging effects of OS integration imply that the full benefits of integration exceed the direct benefits.


An economic study that doesn't consider the impact of bundling on competitive products seems to me to be flawed from the outset.

Also, I think their analysis of the costs of containment are suspect. E.g. [link|http://www.historyguy.com/no-fly_zone_war.html|The History Guy] says:

Since American and British forces carried out Operation Desert Fox in December 1998 against Iraq, this "forgotten" war in the Middle East has only become more intense. According to the New York Times in an article on August 13, 1999, American and British forces have escalated the continuing war against Saddam Hussein and Iraq. Since the beginning of 1999 through August 1999, Allied pilots launched over 1,100 missiles against 359 Iraqi targets. That number equals nearly three times the amount of ordnance used in the four-day Desert Fox strike. Also, the pilots in the Iraq War have flown two-thirds the number of missions as NATO pilots in the 1999 Kosovo War. By all accounts, Iraqi forces continue to target their radar and fire missiles at Allied warplanes despite the punishment inflicted from the air. The estimated, unofficial cost of this war to U.S. and British taxpayers is around $1 billion per year. As of August 1999, over 200 military planes, 19 naval ships and 22,000 American military personnel are committed to enforcing the "no-fly zones" and to fighting Iraq. In addition, reports indicate that the death rate for small children has doubled in Iraq over the past decade. These child deaths are attributed to the continuing war and economic sanctions on Iraq and Saddam Hussein\ufffds unwillingness to live up to the 1991 cease-fire agreement.


Emphasis added.

I vaguely recall posting something here earlier (from the NYTimes?) that said the cost was ~ $2B/year to enforce the no-fly zones, but I can't find that now. I can believe another factor of 2 or 3 (meaning 2-3 $B/yr), but not a factor of 19.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New To the sufficiently staggerable, anything is staggering.
Mace is a chemical weapon. It's got chemicals in it, right?

We now return to our regularly scheduled Leftist hysteria and semantic brinksmanship.
----------------------------------------------------------------
4 out of 5 Iraqis choose democracy!
If you don't like my posts, don't click on them.
Never mind the AP. Here's the real Iraq reporting: [link|http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/|http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/]
"The period of debate is closed. Arms, as the last resort, decide the contest." - Thomas Paine, Common Sense
New staggering loss of materiel maybe
but with less military deaths and accidents than DUI fatalities and injuries in the US you are hyping in the Sheehanian manner.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Add in economic casualties - start with your kids
Yes we have lovely automation now. One soldier carries more firepower than was used in the entire civil war (I made that up - might be right - who knows?). So fewer (of our) people die. But we and our kids and most likely their kids will be paying for this mess. The costs are huge - and for what?

Nothing, nada, zip, zero. All we have done is destroy the US's reputation abroad, inflame the ragheaded psychos, bankrupt the treasury, and forfeit the high ground by use of stupid ineffective interrogation techniques.




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 12:42:20 PM EDT
New nice slide from under your prognostications of doom :-)
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Who needs prognostications - just look around.

     White Phosphorus, hype vs reality - (marlowe) - (20)
         Phil vs Pentagon - (rcareaga) - (1)
             you mean when I was calling in rounds of WP to Mark - (boxley)
         Looks like I hit a nerve! - (tuberculosis) - (17)
             One nit - (bepatient) - (12)
                 staggering losses - (rcareaga) - (1)
                     I see - (bepatient)
                 Nit again... - (Simon_Jester) - (4)
                     Point taken - (bepatient) - (3)
                         Big nit - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                             I should know better. - (bepatient) - (1)
                                 Right. Not by a factor of 10. - (ben_tilly)
                 I was talking about monetary cost. - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                     Cost of containment is $380 billion so invading was cheaper - (boxley) - (2)
                         Um, box...did you read that article?? - (Simon_Jester)
                         I hope their analysis is better than their OS analysis. - (Another Scott)
                 To the sufficiently staggerable, anything is staggering. - (marlowe)
             staggering loss of materiel maybe - (boxley) - (3)
                 Add in economic casualties - start with your kids - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                     nice slide from under your prognostications of doom :-) -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                         Who needs prognostications - just look around. -NT - (Ashton)

Goomba.
223 ms