These beings were clearly different from Orcs.

Post #23,421 by wharris2 1/7/02 5:48:47 PM Reply	These beings were clearly different from Orcs. Orcs were the man-sized bestial beings they were fighting at the end of the movie, and portrayed in several of the Saruman scenes. These things in the Moria scene swarmed up and down those stone columns in a decidedly non-Orcish manner and were rather diminuative. I know the terms seem to be interchangable, but in this particular case I believe "goblin" is best described as a degenerate lesser breed of orc (spindly and limber), orcs are the human-sized muscular things, and Urak-hai are mutated Super-orcs. I don't know what else to call those things in the Moria scene but goblins. But I'll admit I haven't read TLOTR for several months; did Tolkien name or describe anything else that might fit the bill? "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it." -- Donald Knuth
Post #23,430 by tonytib 1/7/02 6:55:29 PM Reply	Several sizes of Orcs IIRC: -- "goblins" is used in The Hobbit, but never in the LoTR. The goblins were living in the Misty Mountains, and didn't like the sun. They are the same as the small orcs from Moria in the LoTR. -- there are little tracker orcs, like the one that was tracing Frodo and Sam in Morder on their way to Mt Doom. -- there are the big orcs from Morder -- there are Saruman's mutant big orcs -- and probably more types shown, but this is what I remember right off. Tolkein lets the origins of Orcs stay unclear; he mentions the theory they were created by Melkor from captured elves in the first age, but this is never stated as the definite origin anywhere I can recall (and I've read Hobbit, LoTR, Silmarillion, Lost Tales, and a bit more). Tony
Post #23,474 by boxley 1/8/02 10:23:14 AM Reply	goblins are to orcs what gollum was to bilbo unassociated and degenerated from the rest usually living underground. Like the Romanian Legion fighting with the German SS (although Tolkien has said he didnt specifically have Nazi SS in mind while thinking about orcs.) my 2 cents bill My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #23,475 by CRConrad 1/8/02 10:27:34 AM Reply	Or Myrdraal to Trollocs...
Post #23,485 by nking 1/8/02 11:30:30 AM Reply	Goblins and Orcs If you ask me, Goblins and Orcs were created by magic, which mutated them. It apparently has different results on different races. In the movie, that Gandalf's Guild Master said that Orcs were once Elves before the evil magic changed them. Maybe because the ones he had in his army were once Elves, they are big. If other Orcs were once Dwarves or Hobbits, they are smaller. Also wasn't Gollum something else, like a Hobbit or Human, before the ring turned him into some sort of frog/lizard creature? "In order to completely solve a problem, you must make sure that the root of the problem is completely removed! If you leave the root, the problem will come back later to get you." - Norman King
Post #23,489 by CRConrad 1/8/02 11:34:46 AM Reply	Yup, Gollum used to be... Spoiler warning! (?) ...a hobbit. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #23,490 by admin 1/8/02 11:35:49 AM Reply	That was the speculation in the book, at least. It was left open-ended IIRC. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #23,497 by boxley 1/8/02 11:58:13 AM Reply	hobbits in general were animorphes, humanoid otters or oterised humans, many of the characterictics of both. Gollum was a pre-hobbit, his advanced age and mutations degrading his humanoid characteristics. Hobbits were sleek and round thats why I dont get the movie visuals. (might go see it tommorow.) thanx, bill My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #23,501 by CRConrad 1/8/02 12:04:04 PM Reply	For Marvel-comic values of "mutation". It don' work that way

Welcome to IWETHEY!