Post #231,911
11/1/05 1:11:53 PM
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in the WTF category Brit beleive in ghosts but not gods
[link|http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1594383.html|http://www.ananova.c...y/sm_1594383.html] Over two thirds (68%) said they believe in the existence of ghosts and spirits. Just over half (55%) said they believe in the existence of a God. you would think that the numbers would line up a little better. Beleiving in ghosts and not god is like beleiving the girlfriend that she is only a little bit pregnant. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #231,914
11/1/05 1:17:27 PM
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Why?
Don't the religions try to say that there are no ghosts and spirits?
Why can't someone believe in ghosts and spirits, and not believe in God? I don't follow you logic.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #231,917
11/1/05 1:22:23 PM
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those that dont beleive in gods often claim logic an science
no "proof", now I can see that beleiving in ghosts (remnants of dead people) proof of some form of life after death could be argued that yet higher forms of existance are possibly out there. As opposed to I beleive in ghosts but thats it, no demons angels or gods. If you stretch the chemware enough for one its should logically stretch to the further conclusion. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #231,922
11/1/05 1:34:50 PM
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I can see your logic
but iirc, most religions don't want any ghosts or spirits to compete with the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit. And remember, when you die you either go to heaven or to hell. Ghosts and spirits hanging around would confuse everyone.
You can believe in God, but not in ghosts and spirits.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #231,926
11/1/05 1:54:19 PM
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Ignoring, of course, all non-YHVH based religions...
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #231,930
11/1/05 2:10:01 PM
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eh? the book is full of haints witches demons angels giants
gods, talking snakes and all kinds of wonders where do you get the idea you go immediately to heaven or hell? its (according to the christians) at least 1007 years in the future if the time starts NOW. YMMV from religion to religion thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #231,934
11/1/05 2:20:41 PM
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Re: eh? the book is full of haints witches demons angels gia
Yeah, but most of them play on the West Coast....
jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #231,925
11/1/05 1:50:08 PM
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Not so.
Whether there are such things as "ghosts" is still an open question, though it seems to have more evidence than the existance of God. If there are such things they could have a reasonable physical or metaphysical explanation.
A fairly widespread metaphysical explanation is that a person has several non-physical support structures underlying the physical body. When the body dies these support structures come unassembled and should dissipate or transition to a different phase of existance. Under some circumstances parts of this support structure may remain intact and hang around.
God not required.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #231,931
11/1/05 2:10:58 PM
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not required but inffered all matter is energy
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #231,943
11/1/05 3:29:58 PM
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Animism
The belief in the existence of individual spirits that inhabit natural objects and phenomena. The belief in the existence of spiritual beings that are separable or separate from bodies. The hypothesis holding that an immaterial force animates the universe. See [link|http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=animism|http://dictionary.re.../search?q=animism] At a certain time of the year, a whole load of druids perform some ritual at Stonehenge. Worshipping nature, not god. Tree hugging in the UK predates christianity.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #231,951
11/1/05 4:11:40 PM
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just another word for god
The hypothesis holding that an immaterial force animates the universe. fits the descriptions I have read. thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #231,987
11/1/05 7:49:00 PM
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A force with no self awareness, unlike any god...
leaving only people (and possibly spirits) with self awareness. If an animist belief does have self aware spirits, nobody wants to worship them. Whereas polytheism has self aware spirits that people want to worship.
Think of the stranger kind of tree-hugging hippies (and commit the sin of stereotyping). Mother nature is a force with only an instinctive purpose, like a lizard only has instinctive purpose.
You could say 13% of the British believe in a primitive religion. I suspect it's just uncriticised superstition. Horror books and films are more popular than religious ones. Horror excites people but god simply doesn't cut it anymore.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #231,990
11/1/05 8:00:33 PM
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better take either a religious or anthropology class
[link|http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/a/animism.htm|http://www.themystic...les/a/animism.htm] He believed early man treated all animate objects as having a life and will of their own, but they never distinguished the soul as separate from the body, and could enter or leave the body. animism doesnt so much worship as recognise life forms. Even noted animists such as the Cheyenne and the Koreans believe in an overbeing(s). thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #231,999
11/1/05 9:09:10 PM
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That doesn't contradict me
Having life and will does not make something self aware, in the same way that a lizard having life and will does not make it self aware. Gods are generally self aware and have purportedly communicated in a language. The article about animism makes no mention of this and doesn't even mention a god, though it does mention worship.
So, there exists a type of belief that has spirits but no god.
But as I said, I don't think that 13% have a consistent belief system. It's likely that more people believe in the christian god than the christian satan. It's a disconnected pile of whatever uncriticized ideas enter their brain.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin? - Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #232,020
11/1/05 10:30:28 PM
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What makes you think lizards are not self aware?
Scientific studies have shown very little difference between humans and other animals. The awareness may not be verbal, but it's definitely there. Parrots can be verbal, so several have been taught to talk, to devise sentences with meaning, ask questions and understand answers. That's self awareness. Lizards are more primitive than parrots, but but are not different in any absolute way.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #232,026
11/1/05 10:43:06 PM
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I seem to recall the dot test
Paint a dot on the subject. Put them in front of a mirror. Observe if the see the dot and then reach to themselves, or to the mirror image. Dolphins and people (age 11 months or so) reach to themselves, no others.
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Post #232,027
11/1/05 10:56:39 PM
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I see this as proving . . .
. . an understanding of mirrors, nothing more.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #232,034
11/1/05 11:19:34 PM
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Chimpanzees also figure it out quickly
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #232,201
11/2/05 8:00:49 PM
11/2/05 8:11:55 PM
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Agreement
(after reading with comprehension; a non-negative is almost as wasteful as a mind. The subject of that predicate was the previous post.) In support of that assertion, then - A force with no self awareness, unlike any god... leaving only people (and possibly spirits) with self awareness. A common thread amongst the variant -isms goes ~~ like this: [The Absolute] (*That* "to which no attributes may be assigned." Period.) The [Absolute] cannot 'know itself'. But means to ??? Yes, one has to THINK about that predicament, for quite some time. In order to "do" so, Other must be created, and by this er Singularity. And a milieu / maya / illusion (whatever) which is most often labelled, The World of Duality: happens. Within-which has been spawned all those metaphors; assembled-from-which was the Christian version: with the oft-used snake and the limning of the 'knowledge' thing, as appears closely-related to the Being thing, but not simply-enough for a few slogans to cover it. The Good/Evil, Yes/No Right/Wrong ... Duality Thing? R'us. And, I say - how appropriate for Our Time\ufffd (and re the major preoccupations of many hereabouts) that Duality is an exact synonym for digital; and the worst form of digital surely must be: digital-think. Especially when operated upon ~most everything there is? seems to be? endlessly spinning opposites along the Way. Naaah: the primrose path. Cosmic Humour? Shirley.. And therein lies the reason why the Fundies (of any stripe) shall never Grok-to-fullness -- just create incessant warz. Digital yes/no think keeps a one locked into the world of appearances. Pity. There: the history of contemplation AND an expectation of its means of denouement. :-\ufffd
Edit - for opposites.

Edited by Ashton
Nov. 2, 2005, 08:11:55 PM EST
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Post #231,963
11/1/05 5:13:34 PM
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For specific definitions of god
I suspect that a significant percent of the people taking the survey automatically connected god with the Christian God when asked. I think that a decent percent of those that said no actually believe in some sort of higher power that we would consider a belief in god.
Jay
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Post #231,970
11/1/05 5:54:38 PM
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What? You think that Hindus don't exist?
For the record, there are a lot more options than just Judeo-Christian vs science.
The fact that some people who don't believe in God do so because of a particular rational about science doesn't mean that all people who don't believe in God believe that.
Come on, this is basic logic!
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #231,985
11/1/05 7:18:07 PM
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Well said.
And one of the reasons I appreciate so many of your posts on this topic.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #231,991
11/1/05 8:06:00 PM
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prove hindu's exist
hindu's believe in god, all sorts of them. Good christians should believe in god(s) because they used to fornicate with women and created giants. There is only one G_d, described by men who have no understanding of his nature so amorphise according to their own cultural beliefs and backgrounds. Me included. I can prove this to your satisfaction if we both croak around the same time and before other business at hand is attended to :-) thanx, bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #231,997
11/1/05 9:01:00 PM
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Look at the survey question
It doesn't say "gods". It says, "a God".
Hinduism (at least as commonly understood) does not have "a God" in anything like the Western understanding of the word. Lots of gods? Sure. But "a God"? Nope.
(Note the capitalization.)
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #232,041
11/1/05 11:42:43 PM
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What's all this "G_d" business?
It's not like you're spelling out the tetragrammaton, or anything.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #232,047
11/1/05 11:56:41 PM
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It's a common sign of respect or reverence.
Many religions believe that words have power far in excess of the power that we give them now. To say a being's name was to invoke its power or have power over it. E.g. [link|http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&verse=1&version=9&context=verse|John 1:1]: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #232,049
11/2/05 12:05:24 AM
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You'll be referring to me as P_t_r, then, I take it?
The "Word" wasn't a literal word, it was the Word.
Note it reads "the word was God", not "the word was 'God'".
Huge difference.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #232,053
11/2/05 12:22:29 AM
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Still...
I didn't explain it as well as I could have, and probably should let Box speak for himself (with the risk that the boxlish would be less intelligible than my comments ;-), but let's go to our favorite [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism|free (and potentially crappy) encyclopedia]: Jewish law requires that secondary rules be placed around the primary law, to reduce the chance that the main law will be broken. As such, it is common Jewish practice to restrict the use of the word Adonai to prayer only. In conversation, many Jewish people will call God "HaShem", which is Hebrew for "the Name" (this appears in Leviticus 24:11). Many Jews extend this prohibition to some of the other names listed below, and will add additional sounds to alter the pronunciation of a name when using it outside of a liturgical context, such as kel or elokim. Many Jews also write "G-d" instead of "God". While this last substitution is by no means required by religious law (only the Hebrew name, not the English, is holy), it is done to remind the reader of the holiness attached to God's name. (N.B.: Some Orthodox rabbis, e.g., Shlomo Ganzfried, have held that none of the proper names of God should be erased, blotted out, or discarded, even in translation.)
English translations of the Bible generally render YHWH as "Jehovah" in several locations, while replacing the name altogether as "the LORD" (in small capitals), and Adonai as "Lord" (in normal case). In a few cases, where "Lord YHWH" appears, the combination is written as "Lord GOD". I stand behind the thoughts expressed in my previous post; the language can probably be argued over. The belief is that the name itself has power and is holy. Rather than P_t_r, could I call you, "He of the big feet and nice kitchen"? Cheers, Scott.
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Post #232,056
11/2/05 1:00:47 AM
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But the only "holy" name is the Hebrew one, innit?
If my old feller were still around, I'd ask him; this sort of thing was right up his alley.
And you can call me whatever you like, dear.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #232,057
11/2/05 1:18:27 AM
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Interesting comment in the Wikipedia discussion:
While I believe the previous poster was correct as to the original purpose of writing G-d in this way, I see little reason in continuing the practice. The English word God is not the Name of the Jewish god. It is a generic word to describe a deity in a language that was created at least 3000 years after God purportedly told Moses His true name on Sinai. As far as I know, many Orthodox authorities write God as such. I believe the practice is related to the fact that writing the actual Tetragrammaton in Hebrew script is strongly discouraged because of its sanctity and the requirement that the document containing the Name never be destroyed, but afforded the honor of a deceased body (i.e. being buried in a Jewish cemetery). However, this leads to another question: Does the fact that the Tetragrammaton appears in this article constitute a violation of this precept? When I clear my browser's cache, will I be violating this principle by deleting the files that contain the written Name of God? --Spem 05:51, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #232,060
11/2/05 2:28:51 AM
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Well, he'd better convert to Christianity right away . . .
. . then so he can get forgivness for clearing his browser cache (he should note that forgiveness is cheaper in the Protestant churches than in the Catholic).
God,** I'm glad I'm a Pagan and don't have to worry about this crap (or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or whether the first seven popes were saints or common criminals or whether bears are Catholic and/or the Pope shits in the woods).
** "God" in this sentence is an expression completely devoid of Holy Ghost and is not an invocation of any deity or higher power beyond my own frustration.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #232,065
11/2/05 2:46:57 AM
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I'm just glad I'm an atheist...
...so I don't have to deal with any of this giant-sky-pixie/tree-hugging/infidel-slaying/flying-spaghetti-monster crap.
Apart from poking at it with a stick, of course.
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #232,122
11/2/05 12:01:18 PM
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if you note this is the only forum that I usually do it
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #232,042
11/1/05 11:42:48 PM
11/1/05 11:43:07 PM
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Dupe
Peter [link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!

Edited by pwhysall
Nov. 1, 2005, 11:43:07 PM EST
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