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New A take on the Neocon-Scopes II trial
[link|http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/10/20/dover_trial/index.html| Salon].

Ah well, 'tis the very Age of re-runs.. beautiful old noir flics to restore a sense of art, when the cgi car-crashes and 4-D light sabers pall, or worse. But the prospect of any metaphysical 'discussion' in Murica proceeding anywhere beyond I Believe and I Know I'm Right\ufffd seems the dimmest yet; transistors won't improve the dialogue, I fear.

A little sociological choreography here, as the overture to this dance fades out.. with a wistful glissando in a minor key.
Intelligent designer

The chief defender of intelligent design in the Dover evolution trial insists he has science and God on his side.


By Gordy Slack


Oct. 20, 2005 | HARRISBURG, Pa. -- Richard Thompson has a startling habit of thrusting his fist to his mouth and biting his index finger between the first and second knuckles, as if trying to keep himself from saying too much. But as quickly as it goes in, the finger comes out again and his words begin to flow. He cannot help himself. He must tell the truth. As he sees it.

Thompson is the founder, president and chief council of the Thomas More Law Center, a nonprofit group in Ann Arbor, Mich. The Law Center is representing the Dover School Board pro bono in the current landmark case that pits the theory of evolution against "intelligent design," the theory that some features of the natural world are best explained as the products of an intelligent cause or designer. The Law Center describes itself as "the Sword and Shield for People of Faith," and was originally funded by ultraconservative Domino's Pizza millionaire Thomas Monaghan, who is, like Thompson, a Catholic.

On Sept. 26, the first day of trial, Thompson, in an elegant dark suit, is standing on the steps of the U.S. Middle District Courthouse in Harrisburg, Pa. The trial has adjourned for the day. It is expected to continue through the first week of November.

A light rain falls as lawyers and advocates on both sides of the debate are making public comments. But nearly all of the reporters, photographers and cameramen surround Thompson. He is short and powerfully built, white-haired but bald on top, and endowed with an impressive nose and preternaturally white teeth. He has the defiant, almost menacing energy of an armed man on a moral mission.

Thompson is holding forth on his defense strategy. He says his scientific experts will show that I.D. is a valid scientific theory based on empirical observation by credentialed and respected scientists. He is arguing that no theory should be judged by its historical roots, even if they are religious, or even if they are creationist. Modern chemistry emerged from alchemy, after all, and that doesn't make it bogus. Astronomy emerged from astrology, and we don't hold that against it. Nor should a theory be judged by the personal ideologies of those who hold it; plenty of Darwinists are atheists, but that doesn't disqualify evolutionary biology as an ideology, he says.

Schools that want to include the I.D. debate in their curriculum deserve the right to do so, Thompson says. Denying them that right is a form of both scientific and religious discrimination. "I.D. is seeking a place in the classroom because of its merits," he says. "But it's being kept out because it is harmonious with the Christian faith."

He continues: "There are two Americas today, one that's still very religiously based, and another that has no foundation, where everything is relative, where everything goes." And the moral relativism that dominates the second America is an ideology enabled by Darwinism.

"All scientific theories, including Darwinism, have religious implications," Thompson says. And the religious implication of Darwinism is atheism. Furthermore, moral relativism, atheism and the idolatry of science are symptoms of our "floundering society." Thompson says he aims to put society back on track, and that track is there for us, laid down by God. "We do this, all of the attorneys I'm working with do this, because of our religious commitment."

"Do you believe that we and other primates descended from common ancestors?" a British filmmaker calls out. Thompson bites his finger and says, "Do I think I evolved from an ape? No, I don't believe my ancestor was a monkey."

Thompson stole the lines from William Jennings Bryan.

Bryan was the lawyer, orator, statesman and progressive evangelical Christian who, 80 years ago, argued against teaching evolution in high school in the Scopes Monkey Trial in Dayton, Tenn. Although Bryan won the Scopes trial, he is remembered for taking an intellectual pummeling on the stand by Clarence Darrow -- perhaps the second most famous lawyer of the day and an advocate for evolution and modernity. While the Scopes trial set off decades of anti-evolution legislation in states around the country, it is also remembered as the beginning of the end for American creationism.

Who could have guessed that the ideologies fueling the Scopes trial would evolve enough to bring us this new version four-fifths of a century (and libraries full of evolution-supporting evidence) later? Well, Thompson could have. "Questions about the role of design in creation have been asked for thousands of years," he says. "They haven't been put to rest at all. They're just getting stronger."

Kitzmiller et al. v. Dover Area School District -- the trial's official name -- was hatched in October 2004 when a small south central Pennsylvania community's school board passed a resolution mandating that ninth-grade biology teachers launch their class by reading four paragraphs to their students. The paragraphs cast doubt on the validity of evolutionary theory and say that there are competing theories (specifically I.D.) and that copies of an I.D.-friendly textbook, "Of Pandas and People," are available in the library for anyone who wants to learn more. Several members of the school board quit in protest when the proposal passed, and in December, 11 parents sued the board, accusing it of violating the First Amendment.

The suing parents -- backed by the ACLU, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, and the huge Philadelphia law firm Pepper Hamilton LLP -- are claiming that I.D. is not a scientific theory, but a religious one, namely creationism, and has no business posing as science in biology classrooms.

U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III (a George W. Bush appointee) will have to decide, following testimony by scientists, philosophers, theologians and historians of science (as well as the plaintiffs and school board members), whether telling Dover's ninth-graders about I.D. is exposing them to an "underdog science," as Thompson calls it, or is promoting a particular religion.

If Judge Jones decides in favor of the Dover school board, dozens of other school boards around the country are waiting in the wings to implement I.D. into their science curricula. If he decides for the defendants, Darwin's theory of evolution alone will continue to be taught in public schools as the scientific explanation for the diversity of life. Regardless of how Judge Jones votes, both sides have said they will appeal the case all the way to the Supreme Court.

Thompson gained fame as the Michigan state prosecutor who repeatedly charged assisted-suicide advocate Jack Kevorkian with first-degree murder, and didn't stop pursuing him until Thompson was elected out of office, in large part for hounding Kevorkian. Thompson is also known for pushing through mandatory life sentences in Michigan for drug crimes and for prosecuting more drug offenders than anyone else. And, of course, Thompson shares with Bryan the conviction that Darwinism is perhaps the world's most dangerous idea.

But for Thompson to prevail in his quixotic battle to convince the court that I.D. has a place in a nearby high school's ninth-grade biology class, he will need more than confidence and religious zeal. Although divine intervention might help, what he really needs are some new and compelling arguments to help I.D. sneak around the constitutional prohibition against promoting a particular religious view in the public schools. And he thinks he's got them.

Next page: "Should 'On the Origin of Species' be kept outside the science classroom because it talks about the Creator?"

New When you look at the genesis creation myth
man was alone he needed a helpmate (and something to scrag besides sheep) so he was placed asleep and a rib was removed to make woman. So in modern terms an operation was done and a clone was made without one essensial chromosone. Now Man doesnt remember his own creeation, perhaps an infinct ape was anestetized and and viral dna inserted then grew aware that he was "different".

That explains apes and men and ID quite nicely I think and the timing fits the sages timelines.

St Box of Ass
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New When a neocon insists...
...he has <something> on his side, you can be assured he doesn't -- it is simply the application of the Truth by Intimidation rhetorical style which seems to be the only rhetorical play in their playbook. So in this case, whena neocon insists he has God and Science on his side, you can be assured he has neither.

Nothing to see here...move along, move along....
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New Re: A take on the Neocon-Scopes II trial
This is a hilarious sendup of "I believe and I know I'm right" attitude.

[link|http://movies.crooksandliars.com/The-Colbert-Report-The%20Word-Miers.mov|http://movies.crooks...%20Word-Miers.mov] (QuickTime)



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Another take

If the debate between the neo-creationists and actual science only worked like [link|http://abstractfactory.blogspot.com/2005/10/only-debate-on-intelligent-design-that.html|this], I'd be able to enjoy. Hell, I'd even encourage it.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New :-)
New Merveilleux !

New written by a lawyer not a scientist :-)
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New ICLRPD
In the comments:;
You are clearly going to have the best dissertation defense ever. Just put the bat on the table before you start. Don't mention it, don't indicate it, pretend it's not even there.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New I'm glad it doesn't work that way
They are better armed. The President is one of them and has an army. Plus he thinks that irony is a type of metalwork.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Fat-fingered multi-post...Ignore....
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

Expand Edited by jb4 Oct. 23, 2005, 06:41:50 AM EDT
New ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #230550 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=230550|ICLRPD]
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New "Is it science yet?"
"IS IT SCIENCE YET?: INTELLIGENT DESIGN CREATIONISM AND THE CONSTITUTION," by MATTHEW J. BRAUER, BARBARA FORREST, and STEVEN G. GEY is a [link|http://law.wustl.edu/WULQ/83-1/p%201%20Brauer%20Forrest%20Gey%20book%20pages.pdf|Washington University Law Quarterly] article (149 page .pdf). It has 594 references.

The article is discussed here at the [link|http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2005/ZZ/97_is_it_science_yet__10_20_2005.asp|National Center for Science Education].

It's a good read.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Nice sourcebook - for school boards not yet seduced.
That we should need to go through this One More Time -

priceless.

New ID advocates have different brain structures or something?
I came across
In Intelligent Design, Dembski does offer a replacement for MN [scientific method]. It hardly meets either criterion and certainly does not qualify as science, but he has little else to which to appeal. In the contest between Christian theism and scientific naturalism, theism wins: Dembski proposes using \ufffdChristology\ufffd to judge a scientific explanation\ufffds \ufffdconceptual soundness.\ufffd (\ufffdChristology is the study of the Person and attributes of Christ, in particular the union in Him of divine and human natures.\ufffd) He means that science must include Christ in its conceptual framework, confirming that ID\ufffds presupposition of religion, enunciated by Meyer, is not only sectarian but explicitly Christian.

I just can't envisage how theories of, say, electricity can be measured against the qualities and attributes of an ideal person. In what way can a theory of atomic structure be christ-like or not christ-like. Other than being completely irrelevant to each other. My brain hurts trying to think about it. How can anyone think like that? This Dembski must be completely insane.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New They have certain base beliefs and build on them.
It's not so much insanity as having a strongly held base belief that gets in the way of the scientific method. If something comes up that challenges the base belief, it has to either be 1) accepted, 2) rejected, or 3) regarded as irrelevant to the base belief. The strong ID people choose #2.

The strong ID people reject anything that can be used to argue against the truth of Christianity and the Bible.

The hard sciences would be in a similar predicament regarding base beliefs if it were somehow discovered that c (the speed of light in vacuum [1]) wasn't constant throughout the universe, or if the laws of physics varied throughout the universe. It's an important assumption in physics that we can make reasonable inferences and do reproducible experiements because the physics doesn't change with time and position in space. For example, the calculations of the distances to stars and the age of the universe depend on c being constant. There's very good evidence that c is constant, but we don't know that that's the case everywhere and throughout all time.

Of course, science has a way around these predicaments - experiments and modification of theories. ID doesn't. That's one of the reasons why ID isn't science.

Cheers,
Scott.
[1] Note that the speed of light through various media is less than c - that's how your glasses work. Light moves slower through lenses than through air, so in general the path is bent. But c - the speed of light in vacuum and the ultimate speed for real particles - is a constant. As far as we know. :-)
New Well, it's *relatively* constant
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Overstating the advocacy somewhat.
But its the outliers that make the press (and write the books, etc). I think most would assume that laws of physics apply, that evolution pretty much explains the way things went around here for the past several hundred million years, et al...but believe that these things were not necessarily random.

That is how someone can actually believe in science and a god at the same time.

It isn't necessarily insanity or a case of mass delusion. Though that does make one feel a bit superior, doesn't it?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New He didn't say insanity or delusion
At least not as far as the belief itself. The delusion is in claiming any of this as science. I can say that the idea of intelligent design is not scientific without saying that it's wrong.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Re: He didn't say insanity or delusion
How can anyone think like that? This Dembski must be completely insane.


In fairness, this guy may well be...but it strikes me as a common complaint/couterargument that anyone who thinks this stuff is delusional...not simply in ID as science...but in ID in general.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New "This one guy is insane" vs "mass delusion"
He said one guy was insane. You pointed out that he's an outlier. You then characterized his position as claiming "mass delusion".
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Not really, at least not what I meant to do
Weakness of medium, I suppose...or my own brevity.

His was but one of may critiques of religion and ID over a very long period of time here that characterizes it this way. Its easy to do so when you focus on the nutcases on opposite sides of the debate.

As usual, though, reality is often in the middle.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New I oppose the message, not any of the messengers
I do not dismiss ID because I regard Dembski as a nut. I am well aware that one person may not be typical of a group. Considering Dembski's idea of applying Christology to biological theories, I would consider it likely that ID advocates shun him. I have never used strawman tactics. My post was not an attack on ID (I do that elsewhere). It was an enquiry about a thought process I can't envisage.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New Oops, double-clicked
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
Expand Edited by drewk Oct. 22, 2005, 12:37:04 PM EDT
New My post was an enquiry, not a stroking of ego
I declared Dembski insane because I cannot see the mechanism of how Christology can be applied to theories of phenomenon. I cannot see how anyone would think that it might be applicable. I can see why people might choose the bible to explain the existence of life but not why someone applies an ideal person to natural processes. I am not interested in being smug, I am interested in understanding thought processes.

Neither am I saying that ID is delusional because of a single nut. I regard the advocates of ID as delusional because ID itself is delusional but that's another thread.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New Drew?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New I hereby declare Warmachine an outlier
So by your standards, he's not representative of those who oppose ID. :-P
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New You shouldn't assume.
I think most would assume that laws of physics apply, that evolution pretty much explains the way things went around here for the past several hundred million years, et al...but believe that these things were not necessarily random.

You shouldn't make assumptions like that.

ID is being pushed by the [link|http://www.discovery.org/csc/|Discovery Institute]. Dembski, one of the famous proponents of ID, [link|http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?program=CSC&command=view&id=62|says]:

Or consider vestigial organs that later are found to have a function after all. Evolutionary biology texts often cite the human coccyx as a "vestigial structure" that hearkens back to vertebrate ancestors with tails. Yet if one looks at a recent edition of Gray\ufffds Anatomy, one finds that the coccyx is a crucial point of contact with muscles that attach to the pelvic floor. The phrase "vestigial structure" often merely cloaks our current lack of knowledge about function. The human appendix, formerly thought to be vestigial, is now known to be a functioning component of the immune system.

Admitting design into science can only enrich the scientific enterprise. All the tried and true tools of science will remain intact. But design adds a new tool to the scientist\ufffds explanatory tool chest. Moreover, design raises a whole new set of research questions. Once we know that something is designed, we will want to know how it was produced, to what extent the design is optimal, and what is its purpose. Note that we can detect design without knowing what something was designed for. There is a room at the Smithsonian filled with objects that are obviously designed but whose specific purpose anthropologists do not understand.

Design also implies constraints. An object that is designed functions within certain constraints. Transgress those constraints and the object functions poorly or breaks. Moreover, we can discover those constraints empirically by seeing what does and doesn\ufffdt work. This simple insight has tremendous implications not just for science but also for ethics. If humans are in fact designed, then we can expect psychosocial constraints to be hardwired into us. Transgress those constraints, and we as well as our society will suffer. There is plenty of empirical evidence to suggest that many of the attitudes and behaviors our society promotes undermine human flourishing. Design promises to reinvigorate that ethical stream running from Aristotle through Aquinas known as natural law.

[...]

William A. Dembski, a mathematician and philosopher, is a fellow of the Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture at the Seattle-based Discovery Institute. His new book, The Design Inference, has just been published by Cambridge University Press.


(Italics added.)

That doesn't sound to me like he leaves much room for evolution. (Whether a mathematician and philosopher should be relied upon as an advocate against evolutionary biology is left as an exercise for the reader.)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Quite possibly
[link|http://www.wsu.edu/DrUniverse/religion.html|http://www.wsu.edu/D...rse/religion.html]
New It's the high-school chemestry lab "solution"
Get the answer from the back of the book (in this case, the "book is the New Testament", and work you way backwards, filling in various values for Z (the Universal Fudge Factor) as necessry to get bac to the original problem.

Note that this presupposes that the Practitioner alreadyhas the answer. Believe me, these yay-hoos already have The Answer\ufffd
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New Re: It's the high-school chemestry lab "solution"
My lab partner and I (Inst. not HS) came up with the exact At. Wt. for a sample - which was in fact, a Magnesium salt. We didn't employ our memory of data from the Periodic Chart, etc. - we just weighed stuff accurately as we could manage. Sometimes the erors Do cancel-out.

(I recall the incident because the instructor Didn't smirk. I called that, Class..)

But yeah, all science is predicated upon working-backwards from an expected guesstimate. None of us integrates very well; differentiation is sooo much easier. Prolly the same with spawners of new 'theories' to justify What I *Know* is Right cha cha cha. (Doomed species - by the inescapable warz from that approach,) but W.T.F.

     A take on the Neocon-Scopes II trial - (Ashton) - (30)
         When you look at the genesis creation myth - (boxley)
         When a neocon insists... - (jb4)
         Re: A take on the Neocon-Scopes II trial - (tuberculosis)
         Another take - (ubernostrum) - (7)
             :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
             Merveilleux ! -NT - (Ashton)
             written by a lawyer not a scientist :-) -NT - (boxley)
             ICLRPD - (drewk)
             I'm glad it doesn't work that way - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                 Fat-fingered multi-post...Ignore.... -NT - (jb4)
                 ICLRPD (new thread) - (jb4)
         "Is it science yet?" - (Another Scott) - (18)
             Nice sourcebook - for school boards not yet seduced. - (Ashton)
             ID advocates have different brain structures or something? - (warmachine) - (16)
                 They have certain base beliefs and build on them. - (Another Scott) - (12)
                     Well, it's *relatively* constant -NT - (drewk)
                     Overstating the advocacy somewhat. - (bepatient) - (10)
                         He didn't say insanity or delusion - (drewk) - (4)
                             Re: He didn't say insanity or delusion - (bepatient) - (3)
                                 "This one guy is insane" vs "mass delusion" - (drewk) - (2)
                                     Not really, at least not what I meant to do - (bepatient) - (1)
                                         I oppose the message, not any of the messengers - (warmachine)
                         Oops, double-clicked -NT - (drewk)
                         My post was an enquiry, not a stroking of ego - (warmachine) - (2)
                             Drew? -NT - (bepatient) - (1)
                                 I hereby declare Warmachine an outlier - (drewk)
                         You shouldn't assume. - (Another Scott)
                 Quite possibly - (broomberg)
                 It's the high-school chemestry lab "solution" - (jb4) - (1)
                     Re: It's the high-school chemestry lab "solution" - (Ashton)

I don't even see the point of having sound on this.
134 ms