Not since 1986 they havent!

What people lose sight of, though, is that Microsoft not only does the whole predatory monopoly, but they also did a lot of good programming.

Oh, yeah? Really? You mean like, for example, QuickC? Or Microsoft C V6.0? Or Dos 4 (either version)? Or whatever they called their "Procomm Killer"? Or NT (which had to be rewritten from scratch twice, and not even Dave Cutler could rescue; can you say graphics engine in Ring 0? I knew you could)? Or Clippy? Or (I'm sorry, I just can't resist...) BOB?!?

Puh-leeze!

The last decent piece of work Microsoft ever did was Microsoft C V4.0. And that was in 1986!

[...] but anyone who denies that they have a lot of smart, competent people has a severe case of head-up-ass syndrome.

They may well have some smart people there (after, it takes quite a bit of brain-bending to keep their current warm, steaming heaps something resembling running). I'm still waiting for empirical evidence of same. But assuming you are, indeed, correct, it's just too bad those alleged smart competent people are not allowed to show themselves.

There's a guy I knew there named [link|http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/|Raymond Chen]. Total and complete asshole. If he found a bug in your department's product, he'd check out the source, write up a fix, then send the fix, diffs, and an all staff e-mail indicating what a bunch of idiots everybody in your department was for missing something as simple as what he had fixed.

I actually worked IN his department for 4 months - not something I'd want to do again. OTOH, I watched this guy read a debug stream from Wordperfect in RAW HEX and figure out exactly where a nasty compatability issue with a prebuild of Win2k was cropping up. He was most definitely NOT stupid, and he definitely had some skills.

(He was also a completely amoral antisocial git, but that goes without saying at Microsoft.)

Post #226,523 by jb4 9/26/05 11:20:58 AM Reply	Not since 1986 they havent! What people lose sight of, though, is that Microsoft not only does the whole predatory monopoly, but they also did a lot of good programming. Oh, yeah? Really? You mean like, for example, QuickC? Or Microsoft C V6.0? Or Dos 4 (either version)? Or whatever they called their "Procomm Killer"? Or NT (which had to be rewritten from scratch twice, and not even Dave Cutler could rescue; can you say graphics engine in Ring 0? I knew you could)? Or Clippy? Or (I'm sorry, I just can't resist...) BOB?!? Puh-leeze! The last decent piece of work Microsoft ever did was Microsoft C V4.0. And that was in 1986! [...] but anyone who denies that they have a lot of smart, competent people has a severe case of head-up-ass syndrome. They may well have some smart people there (after, it takes quite a bit of brain-bending to keep their current warm, steaming heaps something resembling running). I'm still waiting for empirical evidence of same. But assuming you are, indeed, correct, it's just too bad those alleged smart competent people are not allowed to show themselves. jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #226,525 by drewk 9/26/05 11:30:10 AM Reply	You're judging them wrong Their products are very good at doing what they want them to do. Whether they do what you want them to do is entirely incidental. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #226,542 by inthane-chan 9/26/05 1:01:58 PM Reply	Amen. There's a guy I knew there named [link\|http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/\|Raymond Chen]. Total and complete asshole. If he found a bug in your department's product, he'd check out the source, write up a fix, then send the fix, diffs, and an all staff e-mail indicating what a bunch of idiots everybody in your department was for missing something as simple as what he had fixed. I actually worked IN his department for 4 months - not something I'd want to do again. OTOH, I watched this guy read a debug stream from Wordperfect in RAW HEX and figure out exactly where a nasty compatability issue with a prebuild of Win2k was cropping up. He was most definitely NOT stupid, and he definitely had some skills. (He was also a completely amoral antisocial git, but that goes without saying at Microsoft.) When somebody asks you to trade your security for freedom, it isn't your freedom they're talking about.
Post #226,544 by ben_tilly 9/26/05 1:09:54 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #226543 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=226543\|ICLRPD] I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #227,262 by pwhysall 9/30/05 7:25:38 AM Reply	Re: Amen. (He was also a completely amoral antisocial git, but that goes without saying at Microsoft.) Hey, you worked there. Oh, wait... Peter [link\|http://www.no2id.net/\|Don't Let The Terrorists Win] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #227,306 by inthane-chan 9/30/05 10:54:08 AM Reply	He was an employee. I never was.
Post #226,563 by jb4 9/26/05 3:00:01 PM 9/26/05 3:00:49 PM Reply	Point taken! ;-) Still, what did they want BOB to do?!? Enquiring minds want to know... jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT Edited by jb4 Sept. 26, 2005, 03:00:49 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #226,567 by inthane-chan 9/26/05 3:09:45 PM Reply	Get BillG laid, that's what.
Post #226,568 by tuberculosis 9/26/05 3:14:09 PM Reply	Maybe they should have written Microsoft Babe give him something to practice on. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #226,588 by ben_tilly 9/26/05 5:27:13 PM Reply	Um, Inthane is right. And it worked. If you don't have a clue what we're talking about, who was in charge of Microsoft Bob? Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #226,589 by tuberculosis 9/26/05 5:31:45 PM Reply	Ohhhhhhhhhh. I didn't realize that was the angle. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #226,797 by jb4 9/27/05 6:10:41 PM Reply	So lemme get this straight... ..BOB was the software equivalent of a blow-up doll?!? Suh-weeet! Why am I not surprised? Screwed all of us, dinit? jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #226,601 by boxley 9/26/05 7:03:20 PM Reply	nt 3.5.1 dam fine OS, NT4 is where they screwed the pooch and gave application access to ring 0. thanx, bill "the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #226,798 by jb4 9/27/05 6:15:31 PM Reply	Beg to differ! NT 3.anything was the equivalent of my ex-girlfriend's Peugeot: It's ugly, but it sure is slow! And what was the "new technology" that gave NT its "name"? Protected memory spaces...Something they had on 16-bit PDP-11's 20 years before, ferchrissakes! Big fuckin innovation there, all right! Finally using the feature (and poorly at that) that Intel had been puting into their processor chips for the preceeding 8 fuckin years! Right fine piece of "innovation", that...yeppir! Who you crappin, box?!? jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #226,800 by Ashton 9/27/05 6:39:57 PM Reply	Wasn't that the last NT to pass the Orange book (whatever) 'Certification' re security (the first they'd actually heard of that word..?) Or was that V3.50? -- providing it was in a locked room with no floppy; nothing connected to it. ie Ed Curry redux. And they Imported, did they not? == Hired-away some mega-Honcho (was he ex-DEC?) to do it all: for the little drop-out preppie guys to attribute to M$ Innovation. And: none of the above has occurred re Govmint 'Security' tests since? (Yet all the Govmint folks buy the add-ons at $Bs - I'm pretty sure that part is true.) (And.. I Loved the Ring-0 dissertations, first time around - why, even moi could grok what a lazy 'driver'-makin jockey might do.. right there in the hen house.) What a joke, them 'Standards'. And 'Security Proofs' cha cha cha
Post #226,803 by ben_tilly 9/27/05 6:57:58 PM Reply	Not by my recollection NT 3.50, service pack 3. Ed Curry claimed he could have had 3.51 certified fast. NT 4.0, no way. Eventually, many service packs later (6?), NT 4.0 managed to pass a UK test which Microsoft claimed was "equivalent" to the US test. I've not seen proof of that equivalence, nor have I heard of any later version of Windows passing such a security audit. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #226,808 by Ashton 9/27/05 7:18:34 PM Reply	Ah so - it remains ephemeral er, 'inferential'.
Post #226,961 by folkert 9/28/05 2:57:48 PM Reply	On only certain hardware. With no Network Card, Modem, Floppy or CDROM. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [image\|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg\|\|\|\|]
Post #226,982 by ben_tilly 9/28/05 5:00:44 PM Reply	Right I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #226,993 by jb4 9/28/05 6:15:14 PM Reply	Honcho == Dave Cutler (ex of DEC) But, you see, it's OK for Micros~1 to raid and ravage its "competitors" for talent, but should a "competitor return the favor, it's greeted by lawsuits and flying furniture. jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #228,559 by static 10/7/05 12:10:25 AM Reply	Sounds like how Disney does business... d-_-b
Post #228,574 by Ashton 10/7/05 2:50:14 AM Reply	My theory, like the 'single electron' one is that there's One talented person left - who time-shares like that One electron; the rest are all MBAs or wannabes.
Post #229,875 by jb4 10/17/05 5:22:07 PM Reply	The Heisenberg Talented Engineer theory... jb4 shrub●bish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT

Welcome to IWETHEY!