Out of curiousity...

Post #22,626 by Simon_Jester 12/28/01 3:27:29 PM Reply	Out of curiousity... Are we going to talk about never-counted absentee ballots? What never-counted absentee ballots? The military ballots that arrived without postmarks were counted.
Post #22,630 by Ric Locke 12/28/01 3:44:20 PM Reply	Check California, Illinois, and New York It's not just Florida, where the folks got embarrassed into counting most of the absentee and military ballots. If we're going to talk about overall pluralities, we need to check it all, don't we? The only thing different about Florida was that it happened, by luck, to be the last one... an extremely close point in an extremely close election. Texas went overwhelmingly for Bush, but I'd be willing to bet that a complete and accurate tally would show more Gore votes than were counted, without changing the result. We do not have the resources, at this date, to recount the whole country. Our government is a Republic; it's supposed to be a representative Republic, but the Constitution doesn't guarantee that -- only a "republican form of Government." We have a President; that President was chosen by a republican process, and the fact that it went to the courts is irrelevant. You want to criticize GWB, go right ahead; there's some things I don't like, though I'm an overall supporter. You want to bitch about policies, actions, or anything along that line, and I'll either agree or argue according to which of my buttons you push. But constantly, continually, repetitively going back to that well is not just fruitless, it's pointless. Among other things, it diverts your energy from what you ought to be doing, which is campaigning for your chosen folks and better electoral processes. And by this time, the point of the continued whining is clear: it has nothing to do with whether the process worked or not, it's simply a non-negotiable demand that Gore won, and no other result will be accepted -- which makes the demander an ideologue with a clear agenda, and therefore as ignorable as a street-corner bum. What is your local polity doing to ensure a better result next time? Do you know? If not, why not? What suggestions do you have for improving the system? Have you been working in that direction? Did you make suggestions to anyone with some semblance of power to implement them? Did you contribute to people making suggestions you like? Anything else is opera training for pigs. Regards, Ric
Post #22,632 by Simon_Jester 12/28/01 4:25:18 PM 12/28/01 4:32:26 PM Reply	No offense...but you're raising strawmen left and right. The only thing different about Florida was that it happened, by luck, to be the last one... an extremely close point in an extremely close election. Actually I believe that's untrue. New Mexico was just as close (and I don't know if it was ever settled.) The difference with Florida was that it had enough electoral votes to make a difference. (Second, New Mexico HAS a method to handle ties - Florida didn't and still doesn't.) We do not have the resources, at this date, to recount the whole country. Sorry, I havn't seen anyone demand a recount of every single state. Can you provide a reference? Or are you inventing arguments? BTW: I agree with your assessment that people who keep harping on a decision that they don't like are "an ideologue(r) with a clear agenda, and therefore as ignorable as a street-corner bum". The difference between you and I is that I do not demand that the ideologuer shut-up. Edited by Simon_Jester Dec. 28, 2001, 04:32:26 PM EST Expand All History
Post #22,648 by Ric Locke 12/28/01 7:52:36 PM Reply	No strawmen here -- willow twigs exclusively >>The difference between you and I is that I do not demand that the ideologuer shut-up. Hm. In this case, IIRC, mmoffit asked whether it was time to take the subject up again. I have an opinion, and gave it. And the bit about irregularities in other states is not a strawman; it goes to the heart of the reason the Florida nonsense keeps coming up. The plaintive cries of the complainers always specify that it's all about correcting election irregularities -- but you'll notice that they never want to consider any irregularities elsewhere. Reports of college students bragging that they voted four or more times in Illinois? -- never followed up, either to prove or debunk. I've seen rightwingers claim that if California both counted the absentee ballots and disallowed votes by non-citizens, Bush would have won there -- whereupon Florida would be irrelevant, eh? I don't know. It seems far fetched; but I've never seen anything resembling an analysis. No, it's all Florida, and it's all one way; miscellaneous variants on "Aha! I found a way to count the votes so Gore won!" And I say again: Entropy goes one way. It's over. Live with it (as I had to live with BC) and campaign for ways to keep it from ever happening again. Regards, Ric
Post #22,664 by Simon_Jester 12/28/01 10:33:17 PM Reply	Cute twig I've seen rightwingers claim that if California both counted the absentee ballots and disallowed votes by non-citizens, Bush would have won there -- whereupon Florida would be irrelevant, eh? I don't know. It seems far fetched; but I've never seen anything resembling an analysis. No, it's all Florida, and it's all one way; miscellaneous variants on "Aha! I found a way to count the votes so Gore won!" Grin...don't those two statements contradict each other? Sidenote: no voting irregularities have been prosecuted either inside or outside of Florida that I am aware of. (Several were reported.) I fully expect voting irregularities across statelines (ie: people who live both in NY and FL - and who voted twice) are not being tracked/prosecuted.
Post #22,675 by Ric Locke 12/29/01 12:08:43 AM Reply	And it was a dahling sprig, too The comment about California occurred once, shortly after the election, in a thread similar to this one on another site. Various analyses of Bush's illegitimacy based on one or another theory of vote counting are a regular staple of leftish "boards" and leftish participants in all boards. The volume isn't comparable. Regards, Ric

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