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Post #226,242 by Ashton 9/23/05 9:25:16 PM Reply	Expand? Really, I see I have little idea how 'smart' actually, Are the acolytes there ?? We hear about smart folk Hired-away, of course - and then assimilated (or not). But is there much indication that The Campus, in fact trains people who could do World-class work - elsewhere? (Not a rhetorical question, BTW.) The SS was pretty efficient too, though I'm not sure which way an idea of, smart, competent people would fit within a comparison of those particular Germans of the '30s. (The Maya were efficient at heart surgery, etc. No an\ufffdsthesia, either! - it was said to be over ~before you noticed.) But you re-raise here a certain wonderment about the birth-process of a new Softie: how, when? is the Koolaid spiked, such that all those internal machinations for breaking others' apps (and similar Dirty-tricks) are seamlessly incorporated into the Plan for a new piece of s/ware: AND made to appear to be routine Bizness. Is some of this work "great coding generally", or Great coding-to-a M$ recipe? Are these qualities the same, also interchangeable? And while appreciating 'efficiency', I wonder then, how many millions M$ spent (on a patently M$-only 'Final Solution') - anticipating that W2K + AD would next take over the network world. Hmm maybe they did.. is AD now Popular? (I recall W2K sales as having been 'disappointing', but - HTF would I know what that meant.) Was that then, efficient planning? And (way over My head, of course): what was it like re-engineering Kerberos for umm incompatibility: Nasty? Neutral? (hard.. or easy..) Not rabid, just skeptical - insufficient knowledge, I expect. Still, in the end.. maybe Efficiency isn't quite enough, to earn Admiration? Now with new leadership - - I can still recall the thread by one daleross, an M$ protege - "if it's legal it's ethical". But that's not about coding. Is it? Unless the code cripples the 'Partner's new OS/2 Offering or the DRDOS and then ... well, it does Do what you wanted it to do. (I get so confused when trying to actually relate Can I? to Should I? - but I see that I don't really know how that relates to Great Coding, do I?)
Post #226,251 by drewk 9/23/05 10:02:23 PM Reply	Kerberos was easy There was a field whose use was defined in the original specification as being optional. MS defined a non-optional use, then patented their implementation. === Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link\|http://DocHope.com\|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats]. [link\|http://DocHope.com\|http://DocHope.com]
Post #226,266 by ben_tilly 9/24/05 1:10:59 AM Reply	Put it this way Many Microsoft applications were clearly best of breed. Yes, nasty, underhanded tricks were used to make those products dominant. But many Microsoft products from Excel to Internet Explorer really were superior to their direct competition at the time. Particularly when measured by the criteria that Microsoft was trying to win by - ease of development for third parties and ease of use. That didn't happen by accident. It didn't always happen either. For instance their operating systems often were not as good as the competition, but they weren't trying to be either. They already had a monopoly and their goal was to extend it, which gets in the way of a quality product. But whatever their goals were, for a long time Microsoft hit them very reliably. That requires talent, discipline, and a solid organization. Never let your dislike blind you to their strengths. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #226,276 by Ashton 9/24/05 6:55:57 AM Reply	OK I can appreciate certain aspects; always with reservation Imagine though, if Billy&Bally/They'd possessed the integrity of say, a Tektronix (Once - Standard of the World for, simply unarguably - the Best State/Art electronic equipment ever produced anywhere. Also started, run by an engineer. Successfully. Also pioneering in the s/ware as digital became both possible and then more refined; ie correlation applies. Just not mass-market - or that aim, either.) Imagine! ..instead of a Me-Me-Me obsessed spoiled-brat-pair, whose largest talent was and remains: Marketing. Now that IS 'Something', even I concede - but is it ever a Something that isn't inherently tawdry, crass - and Mainly about hornswoggling the marks? 'Excellence' never rising beyond YAN lying-slogan, etc. Power/Wealth like 'ol Chainsaw and the others - but tinhorns all the way. (Digital Research, flawed by the usual Ego-problems as plague all 'quests'- at least never lost technical integrity.. however one picks a version.. of the means of their losing the IBM entr\ufffde to Billy's mom's lobbying of the IBM droids -- just after that Missed opportunity.) Heh, all those opportunities .. when people Didn't assassinate Hitler, too - Cosmic Humor; it's Everywhere.
Post #226,533 by JayMehaffey 9/26/05 12:34:34 PM Reply	Better because of dirty tricks Many Microsoft applications were clearly best of breed. Yes, nasty, underhanded tricks were used to make those products dominant. But many Microsoft products from Excel to Internet Explorer really were superior to their direct competition at the time. Particularly when measured by the criteria that Microsoft was trying to win by - ease of development for third parties and ease of use. It should also be kept in mind that Microsoft applications where better in part exactly becasue of underhanded tricks. Remember that the Microsoft anti-trust suits had as much to do with undocumented APIs as anything. When Excel first came out it was the fastest Windows spreadsheet because it used undocumented memory APIs to give it better memory access. Word made us of file access APIs that nobody else knew about so it could load files faster and easier. In the late Win 3.1 and early Win95 eras there was a whole genre of programming books that did nothing but cover undocumented and secret APIs. Microsoft abandoned that method only because the lawsuits made it too risky and better Windows programming tools made it too easy for outside developers to find the APIs. Jay
Post #226,569 by tuberculosis 9/26/05 3:17:56 PM Reply	You need to remember Excel and Word shipped first on the Mac and they were a couple of the best apps on the Mac at the time. Windows was born of Gates' frustration with Apple's low marketshare and refusal to license the OS externally. He wanted a more widely available platform on which to sell his warez. It was never about building a great OS, it is about providing a compatibility layer for Word and Excel. The original Word and Excel apps on the Mac really were great apps in a lot of ways (although they had an annoying habit of bypassing the Mac Toolbox to do things which resulted in compatibility problems for lots of people). "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush

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