Post #226,241
9/23/05 9:17:12 PM
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Intelligent design faces first court challenge
[link|http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9444600/|http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9444600/]
My first reaction was to skim to the part where the judge was appointed by Bush in 2002, and then I concluded that the ID folks will win this legal round.
Am I just being cynical?
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #226,247
9/23/05 9:46:22 PM
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Not cynical...just realistic. And in that vein...
...just remember: [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=218072|I am the Designer!]
jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #226,255
9/23/05 10:19:29 PM
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'See that and raise you -
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer *god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible *gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
* Intelligent Designer, Vishnu, Siva, Brahman et alia
You Sillies.
..these aren't even decent Questions!
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Post #226,274
9/24/05 5:26:51 AM
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Alas, your argument is useless
Theists do not disbelieve the other gods for the same reasons as atheists. Whereas atheists reject on the balance of evidence, theists believe in a god as a matter of faith and without question, making the existence of other gods automatically impossible, rather than incredibly unlikely.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #226,277
9/24/05 7:34:19 AM
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Au contraire - your examples are peas in a pod.
'A-theism' is a religion precisely 'as much' as the others.
(We've had this discussion (n + epsilon) times, of course - in IW's various venues.)
Need I point out that such a phrase, reject on the balance of evidence - belongs in any genuine (and also competent) metaphysical discussion ~ as well as a fish belongs on that proverbial bicycle (?)
The mountain remains unmoved at seeming defeat by the mist.
-- Rabindranath Tagore
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Post #226,284
9/24/05 10:04:41 AM
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And you're still wrong. Atheism is not a religion.
Neither is theism.
There are many religions that can be described as theistic. There are some that can be described as atheistic.
But neither theism or atheism is a belief system. Rather both are high-level categories of belief systems.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #226,297
9/24/05 11:43:14 AM
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according to the American Juidicial system it is :-)
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #226,314
9/24/05 4:39:20 PM
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That was the LRPD-esque version, right?
Yeah - I Know - this was the intermixed LRPD / nonsequitur thread. Born again.
It Is Not supposed to have a Point. But, W.T.F.
--- Stop Here: if seeking prescribed quip ---
Nothing to see here.
EOF.
Some days one simply Must bite an Analyst on the surd, if a cat is not handy.
You are mapping regions. I see the colors blending at the interstices! It is a visual metaphor - as can usually prevail in the (?) overlapping 'definitions' game.
Alas it's the 5-color map problem, as usual. (And you claimed you were not 'visual'...)
Even the phrase 'belief system' is freighted with the immanent Expectation that: eventually "all these matters shall be contained within a nice, logical Process" - whose algorithm We Shall Solve!"
[By law I am required to add, at this exact point: cha cha cha]
Naah, I just can't. Never mind.
(Besides, these threads invariably prove to be YAN Would I Have Been a Nazi? Amusement Park trivial-diversion - don't they?) Or is that a self-fulfilling Prophecy? Hmmm.. I can go there; worthy maybe of anecdote within My New bestseller candidate, nearing completion via the lend-lease aid of Mr. Kincaid's mondo art-elves, via WalMart sub-contract:
Revelations II
The Heartrending Story
of the cast,
the players,
the producer -
and their mistresses.
And what they were wearing.
But they're all just Regular Joes n'Janes.
Like on M*A*S*H
:-\ufffd j<
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Post #226,291
9/24/05 11:19:28 AM
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Not relevent
Although correctness of evidence-based reasoning is a belief, that is not pertinent to your original statement. Though the atheist and theist are, indeed, using metaphysical beliefs, they're different and incompatible. The atheist's reasoning about the existence of god is still alien to the theist. To say that a theist is really just an atheist but the atheist believes in one less god is as absurd as saying that a cat is really just a rose except that a rose can't walk.
Matthew Greet
Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
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Post #226,315
9/24/05 4:49:18 PM
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My Son
Elucidating the Obvious is neither illuminating nor worthy of Brownie Points within a massively-jocular, expectation-free exercise in wordsmithing for amusement.
(And clearly .. no higher Porpoise is to be expected, given that This is one of an Aleph-null series of redundant, re-recapitulating (all to be forgotten within the attention span of a gnat) predecessors.)
Reread IWE History, man!
If a 'metaphysical Thoughtlet' ever landed on all five feet, here - the natives would first -
Shoot it (as with Klaatu - but he had at least, Gort for backup.)
Then question it.
Then greet it civilly.
Then say Hmmm, I Wonder if - - Nahhhh...
In That Order.
Yours, with heartfelt understanding of your predicament, real or feigned -
moi
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Post #226,260
9/23/05 11:17:47 PM
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"ID must be true! It's proven in court!"
Etc.
Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #226,270
9/24/05 2:56:51 AM
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It doesn't matter either way
The Discovery Institute is a lovely bit of misdirection designed to keep the working class xians voting Republican.
It seems that the folks that by rights ought to be Democrats (I speak of the blue collar set) would rather vote their "morals" than their wallets. They are mobilized by shit like this, bullshit gay marriage amendments, and the like. They feel oppressed and take offense at any perceived slight. They don't understand science and feel like its all fancy talk designed to make them feel stupid. So they rebel by electing neocons to fight this stuff.
The DI pushes for ID in schools - this is how they get members, then they tell the members whom to vote for. It doesn't matter if the DI ever wins, its probably better for them if they don't because it helps their base feel even more oppressed and they give them more money.
Recent readings have convinced me that all this religious shit - the plege of allegiance, ten commandments in the court house, ID, is all calculated BS designed to mobilize the xian voters for the neocons.
I'm beginning to think we should let them have their fucking theocracy for awhile, let the pendulum swing. Once they get all the "culture" shit the way they want, maybe they'll consider the economic status for a bit a realize that their champions aren't doing them any favors.
Or maybe not. The hurricanes have focused the blue-collar voters on what their government ISN'T doing for them, perhaps they won't worry about the culture shit for awhile. Have to wait and see.
The saddest shit is that the secular culture they bitch about is actually driven by big companies who foment outrage to get attention and sell stuff. They don't realize it, but the people they elect to fight their battles are actually anti-people and pro-business which means the poor schmucks are actually voting FOR the commercial culture when they vote neocon even though the cons are running on a platform of xian values.
I've stopped caring about this stuff. If they get ID into the schools, you can bet those schools will only be for the poor people. The reasonably well off will send their kids to schools with better science programs. Its actually self service class warfare. Go figure.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #226,290
9/24/05 11:03:05 AM
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Keep in mind the way press reporting works.
The saddest shit is that the secular culture they bitch about is actually driven by big companies who foment outrage to get attention and sell stuff. They don't realize it, but the people they elect to fight their battles are actually anti-people and pro-business which means the poor schmucks are actually voting FOR the commercial culture when they vote neocon even though the cons are running on a platform of xian values.
I've stopped caring about this stuff. If they get ID into the schools, you can bet those schools will only be for the poor people. The reasonably well off will send their kids to schools with better science programs. Its actually self service class warfare. Go figure. I don't know, Todd. My take is that big companies don't drive secular culture - they follow it. Big companies are incredibly conservative - in the sense that they don't change, they don't take risks, they keep doing what they were doing that seemed to work. Pickup trucks sold pretty well this year? Next year we'll make even more pickup trucks! More powerful engines sold pretty well this year? We'll make even bigger engines!
Small MP3 players sold pretty well this year? Next year we'll sell smaller MP3 players!
Cell phones with color screens and cameras sold pretty well this year? Next year we'll sell cell phones with cameras and color screens and MP3 players!
Movies about the occult and promiscuous teens did pretty well this year? Next year we'll make movies about promiscuous teens and rappers and the occult and MP3 players!
Apple's music store is doing very well? We'll start a music store!
Grade school kids liked dressing up like gangsta rappers and TV stars this year. Next year we'll sell them spinners for their bicycle wheels, bling, and home botox kits! And so forth. :-( Big companies don't lead the culture, IMO. They are too slow in developing new products and services to do anything more than follow. Even Sony has fallen into a conservative rut. The press doesn't report on the normal, run-of-the-mill events in the world, they report on the outliers, the extreme, the different. Since it's easy for stories in out-of-the-way places to be rebroadcast now, weird stories like this one get more attention than they probably deserve. All that said, I do think that it's a disconcerting event that people in another school district are trying to push this ID crap again. I also think that there's too much crap on television that helps to reinforce the view held by many that the US is morally corrupt and losing its way and that "traditional values" need to be reinforced in the schools and in government. I don't think that the Supreme Court will let this stand, if it reaches that far. Let's keep an eye on 'em, but don't overestimate their power. They're not close to winning this argument - yet. As for the body politic waking up, well it would be nice. The trouble is, the opposition has to have a reasonably strong candidate. In too many cases, the incumbent is not effectively challenged. Until that happens, little will change. :-( Cheers, Scott.
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Post #226,335
9/24/05 8:43:01 PM
9/24/05 9:28:51 PM
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No, I'm talking about Hollywood/Madison Ave
Every year the stuff on TV gets a little more crude, ads try to let people identify with subversives, etc. I also think that there's too much crap on television that helps to reinforce the view held by many that the US is morally corrupt and losing its way and that "traditional values" need to be reinforced in the schools and in government. Uh huh. Who puts the crap on the TV? Big corporations. Who puts the sex on the TV and why? Its the endless pushing of acceptability that has generated the right wing rebellion.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #226,445
9/26/05 12:14:51 AM
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Sorry, but you're being naiive
My take is that big companies don't drive secular culture - they follow it. Big companies are incredibly conservative - in the sense that they don't change, they don't take risks, they keep doing what they were doing that seemed to work. [link|http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/etc/synopsis.html|Merchants of Cool]: Of course, there is resistance to the commercial machine. FRONTLINE takes viewers to downtown Detroit, where media analyst Rushkoff speaks with teens at a concert by the Detroit-based Insane Clown Posse, purveyors of a genre of music that's become known as "rage rock." When asked to describe what appeals to them about such music, the teens invariably respond that it belongs to them; it hasn't yet been taken and sold back to them at the mall. Full of profanity, violence, and misogyny, rage rock is literally a challenge thrown up to marketers: just try to market this!
But marketers have accepted the challenge: rage rock is now big business. Not only has Insane Clown Posse become mainstream, but much bigger acts like Eminem and Limp Bizkit are breaking sales records and winning industry accolades in the form of Grammy nominations and other mainstream music awards.
In "The Merchants of Cool," correspondent Rushkoff details how MTV and other huge commercial outlets orchestrated the rise of Limp Bizkit--despite the group's objectionable lyrics--and then relentlessly promoted them on-air.
But in doing so, critics ask, is MTV truly reflecting the desires of today's teenagers, or are they stoking a cultural infatuation with music and imagery that glorifies violence and sex as well as antisocial behavior and attitudes?
In today's media-saturated environment, such questions, it seems, are becoming increasingly difficult to answer.
"It's one enclosed feedback loop," Rushkoff says. "Kids' culture and media culture are now one and the same, and it becomes impossible to tell which came first--the anger or the marketing of the anger." ===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #226,477
9/26/05 3:29:24 AM
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Yep, getting tougher for kids to be / behave
The Opposite of mom n'dad or, increasingly.. mom-or-dad (or in some classes - gramma or Uncle Joe).
Maybe they'll learn an idea of orthogonal or how to do a hypercube, that neat-o graphical hint of 4-D? Group name \ufffd '05 Me: The Tesseracts!
Rebellion.. gosh how er radical an idea.
I know: let's us use lots of loud guitars in our New Release - now, that would be Original.
Or as a friend remarked to a ~19 yo briefly staying at her house, railing about conformity or whatever, "y'know - You're wearing a uniform too," . . . {thud}
(Was, of course: goth-101.)
Homogenization proceeds apace, abetted by these computer network thingies - now a buildin and a cross-referencin Everyone and their blood-type, DVD purchase, fav Bondage site, calibre of one's Glocks - soon DNA. Biz-Efficiency: We Love it. It Loves us. Match made in one of those Heaven things?
Why, I gather that some of those color-glossy Ad presses, doin mailings in the Millions: require highly skilled techno folks to Keep the Good Times Flowing, like ketchup. (Shades of ol' Kistiakowsky, repeatedly blowin-up metal pipes, tryin to make implosion work. I think the Project succeeded (??) with the help of lots of technical Helpers then -- many of whom had no idea What it was they were Building. Too.)
Just watchin the rerun, izzall
Feedback loop: Indeed!
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Post #226,305
9/24/05 1:39:25 PM
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Not entirly calculated
Recent readings have convinced me that all this religious shit - the plege of allegiance, ten commandments in the court house, ID, is all calculated BS designed to mobilize the xian voters for the neocons. It's rare for a politician to create a movement, rather they try to jump in front of one that is strong and ride it to power. The right wing christian movement is a hydra of sorts. The body of the beast is the vast group of people who think of themselves as Christian but know little about what the bible actually says. The three heads are the fanatics, the politicans and the liars. The fanatics are straight forward. These are the ones that are creationists and make no bones about it, the ones that want to overthrow the government and create a theocracy.. The bible supports their posistion* and that is that. Reason is to be accepted only when it supports their posistion, otherwise it is wrong. The politicans are small b believers, but make a big public show of it**. These are the ones that put forth calculated proposals that they know will never pass. Generally they have no idea if their posistions have anything in common with biblical christianity, nor do they care much. The third head is the smallest, but the most dangerous. The ones that are willing to lie about their actual beliefs and goals to make them publicly acceptable. These are the christian conservatives that talk about being moderates in public and while seeking election. This is the head of the ID people***. * Given their own quirky literalist reading of the bible. ** Neither the politicans nor the bulk of the body are aware that this behavior is clearly unChristian. *** A good understanding of their posistion can be seen in how much effort they put into publicly complaining that science is biased against them vs. how little effort they actually put into getting papers published in science journals. Jay
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Post #226,320
9/24/05 5:18:17 PM
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A small note of appreciation (new thread)
Created as new thread #226319 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=226319|A small note of appreciation]
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