The Myth Of The Palestinian People

Post #22,491 by bluke 12/27/01 11:51:07 AM Reply	The Myth Of The Palestinian People [link\|http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=747&PHPSESSID=8c130cc17af83488841596efaea9b6fc\|The Myth Of The Palestinian People] "While the modern media maybe short on information about the history of the "Palestinian people" the historical record is not. Books, such as Battleground by Samuel Katz and From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters long ago detailed the history of the region. Far from being settled by Palestinians for hundreds, if not thousands of years, the Land of Israel, according to dozens of visitors to the land, was, until the beginning of the last century, practically empty. Alphonse de Lamartine visited the land in 1835. In his book, Recollections of the East, he writes "Outside the gates of Jerusalem we saw no living object, heard no living sound\ufffd." None other than the famous American author Mark Twain, who visited the Land of Israel in 1867, confirms this. In his book Innocents Abroad he writes, "A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action. We reached Tabor safely\ufffd. We never saw a human being on the whole journey." Even the British Consul in Palestine reported, in 1857, "The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population\ufffd" ... To maintain the charade of being an indigenous population, Arab propagandists have had to do more than a little rewriting of history. A major part of this rewriting involves the renaming of geography. For two thousand years the central mountainous region of Israel was known as Judea and Samaria, as any medieval map of the area testifies. However, the state of Jordan occupied the area in 1948 and renamed it the West Bank. This is a funny name for a region that actually lies in the eastern portion of the land and can only be called "West" in reference to Jordan. This does not seem to bother the majority of news outlets covering the region, which universally refer to the region by its recent Jordanian name."
Post #22,530 by static 12/27/01 6:46:31 PM Reply	Mythical palestinians. It used to puzzle me when I as much younger why the Jews in the Bible fought the Philistines whilst the modern day Jews were battling the Palestinians. I naively thought they were one and the same. Clearly the Arabs do not want anyone else in Judea and Samaria but themselves. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #22,531 by pwhysall 12/27/01 6:53:40 PM Reply	Middle-Eastern Politics, In A Nutshell while (horse->dead) { beat(horse); } It's great being the winner of a war. You get to write the history books. Peter Shill For Hire [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal]
Post #22,539 by a6l6e6x 12/27/01 8:24:09 PM 12/27/01 10:09:39 PM Reply	Re: The Myth Of The Palestinian People Take a look at [link\|http://www.geohive.com/global/hist1.php\|this table.] Or, [link\|http://www.geohive.com/global/pop_his_as.php\|this] one. Note the populations of Israel, West Bank, Gaza Strip (the occupied territories), and Jordan over time. And, Praise Allah, take a look at Qatar! What's it tell you? There's been a population explosion. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) Edited by a6l6e6x Dec. 27, 2001, 10:09:39 PM EST Expand All History
Post #22,751 by bluke 12/31/01 2:42:05 PM Reply	And therefore what? That doesn't change the facts. Was it occupied territory when Jordan and Egypt controlled it? As usual you didn't answer ANY of my points.
Post #22,757 by a6l6e6x 12/31/01 4:24:03 PM Reply	Re: And therefore what? You are trying to sell the excuse of the car thief - "Well, nobody was using it, so I can take it, and it's now mine!". The land in question was not part of Israel when it was founded in 1948 and is not part of it now. Barring negotiated boundary adjustments with the Palestinians (without coercion), you are obligated by the Geneva Conventions to lift the armed occupation of this land. How the land was used in the past has nothing to do with the issue. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #22,774 by bluke 1/1/02 12:36:39 AM Reply	Who exactly did that land belong to? Not a Palestinian state, there was no such thing. Not Jordan, no one recognized their rule, the fact is as Eugene Rostow and others have said the worst you can say is that the land is "disputed".
Post #22,776 by a6l6e6x 1/1/02 12:45:35 AM Reply	Re: Who exactly did that land belong to? I know who the land did not belong to. It did not belong to Israel. Israeli boundaries were defined by the UN at the time of its founding. Let's just say it belongs to Arabs of some kind. The ones you keep saying own 99.44% (or some such percentage) of the Middle East. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #22,786 by nking 1/1/02 8:48:35 AM Reply	It goes back to pre-history before human being were formed. It belonged to God, when Moses took his people out of Egypt, God gave it to them. Some Yahoos who lived in Jerrico wouldn't let them live there. So they blew their horns as ordered by God and the walls fell down. Isn't Islam based on Judism? Don't they know that God gave the land to the Isrealites? You can't get a higher authority than that, if scripture says it, it must be so! "Before Christmas it is 'Ho ho ho', after Christmas it is 'Owe owe owe'" - Santa Norm
Post #22,753 by bluke 12/31/01 2:49:29 PM Reply	You still haven't answered my question ... Where all those millions of Palestinians who have lived there for generations were hiding when Mark Twain came by.
Post #22,754 by a6l6e6x 12/31/01 3:53:54 PM Reply	It's not anything complicated. Without development, some areas are not very desirable or can only sustain nomadic people. As populations increase, people settle in less desirable areas. Infrastructure (i.e. roads, power lines, aqueducts, etc.) is developed to support the use of this land. Besides, you seem to be hung up on what someone wrote they saw. Try walking in some parts New York City at 3 or 4 AM (as I have). One could conclude it had been deserted. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #22,756 by mhuber 12/31/01 4:16:54 PM Reply	Yeah, but this is Sam Clemens we are talking about One of the more astute observers of human phenomena. Not some fly-by-night documentary producer or one of your modern journalists who has the story written first and then looks for sound bites to back it up. Frankly, I'd take his word over my own personal observations, unless I observed with care for a long time. And I don't say that about many. And he's not alone in that observation. On the other hand, there weren't a lot of witnesses to the lack of people there because, well, there weren't a lot of people there to note the lack of people. It's a freakin' dessert. Sand. Rocks. Not much else until people put something there. ---- "You don't have to be right - just use bolded upper case" - annon.
Post #22,758 by a6l6e6x 12/31/01 4:30:14 PM Reply	Yeah, probably like Las Vegas at the same time. So it's OK for Israel to annex Nevada. :) Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #22,775 by bluke 1/1/02 12:41:03 AM Reply	In essence you admit ... that Palestine 100-150 years was a wasteland with a small nomadic population. The fact is that it was not just Mark Twain who said that, but every single person who came (see my original post). And therefore, even you agree that there is no Palestinian people who Israel displaced, but migrant Arabs who came to Israel after the Jews started developing the country. Why is it that Yasir Arafat who was born in Cairo is considered to be a Palestinian and have more rights to the land , what makes him more of a Palestinian then me?
Post #22,777 by a6l6e6x 1/1/02 1:30:51 AM Reply	Re: In essence you admit ... The Dome of the Rock, was built in 687 A.C., so Muslim Arabs have been around been around continuously since at least then. Wasteland or not in the past, you do not now have rights to it. I suggest you accept the territory provided by the UN in 1948 and leave it at that. You want to start making up rules about territorial ownership? Then why not Hamas making up their rules about it. The Armenians should be claiming part of Jerusalem. Right? That path leads to eternal warfare. You need to convince the Palestinians they were not displaced, not me. It makes perfect sense to me that Jews in the occupied territories become Palestinian citizens. It that's were you live, be my guest. Reciprocity - just like the Israeli Bedouins. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #22,778 by bluke 1/1/02 3:05:49 AM Reply	Do you for 1 second believe that Jews could live... in a Palestinian state. Let us look at the Arab world. Saudia Arabia, no-Moslems can't live there at all, Egypt, Jordan, persecute non-Moslems. There is a reason why 800,000 Jews fled Arab countries in the early 1950's. Look at what the Palestinians are doing to Christian Arabs in Bethlehem? Do you really think that Jews could live there? Would you go to live under a brutal dictatorship? What about the Jews who lived for generations in Syria, Iraq, Egypt, etc. and became refugees after 1948, maybe they should also have the right of return?
Post #22,792 by a6l6e6x 1/1/02 11:23:05 AM Reply	It's possible for Jews to live under mostly Arab rule. You yourself said they did it for generations. There are 2 Jews that have been (and are) living in Kabul (under Taliban rule, no less). These two don't happen to get along, but that is another story. So are you saying the creation of Israel "poised the well"? Sure, undo the whole thing and have the Jews return to Syria, Iran, wherever. Diversity is a good thing. Just like peace. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #22,779 by bluke 1/1/02 3:24:05 AM Reply	You really show your ignorance The UN partition plan in 1947 was not accepted and did not go into effect, in fact, Israel ended up with more territory then the partition plan allocated. If we go with the UN plan, then Jerusalem would be an international city, not the capital of a Palestinian state. Is that what you propose? The irony is that "Palestine" before the 1950's was associated with Jews, in fact, that in the years before Israel\ufffds birth, those who spoke of "Palestinians" were usually referring to the region\ufffds Jewish residents. Arab leaders rejected the notion of a unique Palestinian Arab identity, insisting that Palestine was merely a part of "Greater Syria." The Jerusalem Post (an Israeli English newspaper) started out as the Palestine Post.
Post #22,793 by a6l6e6x 1/1/02 12:54:10 PM Reply	Goodness, bluke. First you tell me Palestinians are a myth, and now you tell me they are (or were) actually Jews. If that is what you are saying, I will grant you that Jews and Palestinian Arabs are same people. They just seem to have some cultural or religious differences. Incidentally, in the mid to late 1950's I was living in New York City in the Lower East Side section of Manhattan. There were a lot of Jews in the neighborhood. One of the local movie theaters (on Clinton! Street) was in fact called Palestine. Today, in common usage, Palestinians are the Arabs of the region. Perhaps this shows the folly of putting to much weight on names. In 1948, I was 8 years old, a "displaced person" of WW-II, and lived in a UN refuge camp in Germany. My world was small. Pardon me for not knowing the details of the negotiations on the creation of Israel (not that I can trust what you say). Actually, an international Jerusalem makes a lot of sense. It would remove some sharp points of friction. It would have been a Solomonic choice. You may (or may not) remember the UAR, the United Arab Republic. Egypt and Iraq, IIRC. You like to lump all Arabs together and maybe you have a point. If these idiots could get along, perhaps what is needed is that they join politically including also Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, the other little kingdoms, and of course the Palestinian Arabs of the occupied territories. The US should get into the "democratic nation building" business again and give aid (same as to Israel on a per capita basis). It would clear up those refuge camps. Over time, peace would be assured. Does that sound like a plan to you? You definitely could not complain about where Arafat was born. :) Israel did have definite borders in 1967 before the Arab attack. Those are the borders that very few would contest. If Israel wanted peace lifting the occupation of the lands beyond these borders would be a major step. Not doing so is the major cause of the troubles you face. There are other causes, to be sure. Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #22,820 by Ashton 1/1/02 9:18:49 PM Reply	Minor nit re that last. There are such things as natural geographic features. Surrendering a mountain-top to a.. not merely likely? future assailant - but an almost certain one: sounds really stupid to me. The Brits especially liked plane geometry, arbitrary straight lines with no slightest consideration of the possibility? likelihood! of future defensibility from the intractable, always around. There is no sane way to 'ignore' the capabilites of modern weaponry - nor even the continuing religious fantasies (God Gave this ___ to ___ yada yada) - those of Israeli religious corporations and of Their various ones. Only can these 'scriptures' be entirely ignored OR: each group can follow their fav latest interpretation.. As each is, has been doing - and will continue ad nauseum. Org. religion is the major cause of eternal warfare, intolerance and {ugh} that horrible homo-sap Righteousness ie stubborness beyond all human compromise. Humans made these lines in the sand. Life has occurred since. Humans will make the next lines - leave this mess to God\ufffd and Be Certain that blood will continue to flow as always. We could OTOH Grow Up.. aided by the current rubric of, Terrorism == Evil. Any Port in a congenitally brainless-Storm, I say. Ashton a Terminal-pox on All the Mindset-Manufacturers as have enslaved 'Mankind' since the caves.
Post #22,821 by Ashton 1/1/02 9:22:18 PM Reply	LRPD: "An 'Outside Context Problem' if ever there was one."!
Post #22,542 by Ashton 12/27/01 10:10:04 PM Reply	Practical solution over ten years. 1) We give the Jews Utah. (Never mind about resultant Mormon Problem - there always need to be problems) Oh: they have to check nukes at the door. Arabs can keep Israel infrastructure if.. they pay for it. Else: raze it on turning out the lights. 2) Build large wall around Middle East, as we develop hydrogen-fuelled vehicles & stations. Cease buying petroleum from anyone inside the wall. Russia & spinoffs: OK. CAFE standards raised to 40 mpg. Gasoline moves toward $6/gallon, so as to preserve petroleum worldwide for its many other uses than mere BTUs. 3) Let the Arab factions control local population by periodic local Jihads: allowed only inside the wall. Dismantle and remove our bases, and any other pointed objects they might harm selves with. Solomonic Enterprises Ltd.
Post #22,544 by Ric Locke 12/27/01 10:24:58 PM Reply	Sounds like my proposed solution for the Balkans Evacuate everybody who doesn't live there. Start flying in guns and ammunition. Goal: Every man, woman, and child gets minimum two submachine guns, one "assault rifle" of whatever type may be cheap as surplus (Chinese, maybe), and 5,000 rounds of ammo for each. RPGs, etc doled out, one per household. Wait ten years. Then go in and hang all the survivors as war criminals. No, I wasn't serious, and I'm not. Just a _bit_ too hard on the kids and other non (or not-yet) participants. But dang, it gets hard to put up with. Regards, Ric
Post #22,552 by a6l6e6x 12/27/01 11:17:43 PM 12/27/01 11:18:48 PM Reply	Well, Brigham Young called it the Promised Land. [link\|http://www.americaslibrary.gov/pages/jb_0724_mormon_1.html\|Salt Lake Valley History.] Now, how can we be sure that Colorado would not become an Israeli occupied territory (in perpetuity)? Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) Edited by a6l6e6x Dec. 27, 2001, 11:18:48 PM EST Expand All History
Post #22,553 by Steve Lowe 12/28/01 12:07:46 AM Reply	West Bank == Western Slope? The Western Slope (as its called) would probably be easy pickings, however, Idaho might present less of a geographical challenge.. ----- Steve
Post #22,644 by boxley 12/28/01 7:30:42 PM Reply	Curious, why not give utah to the palestinians? let the Jews keep their own dirt? Worried about a influx of 711's? thanx, bill My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #22,654 by Ashton 12/28/01 9:05:18 PM Reply	Palestinians can fight their Arab brothers for the honor - you know - the same ones who either ignored them or.. still keep them in permanent camps? They all purport the same God, so best that they work it out via their own illusions. Safely behind a wall of some impermeable kind. Last one alive can declare self both King and God incarnate. Time the Pope, the Vicar of Christ, had a little competition in the new Imam of Allah -- since we all are so big on er 'competition' n' stuff [definitely Lots o' Stuff..] Handing over to ____ [anyone] would be taken as more meddling by Infidels. So I reiterate: Leave it to Beaver (er.. Believers) Ashton Reconstructions Ltd. the bigger the problem the simpler our solution
Post #22,655 by boxley 12/28/01 9:15:57 PM Reply	Well since in our own lives we generally do :) My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
Post #22,656 by boxley 12/28/01 9:16:28 PM Reply	Well since in our own lives we generally do :) My Dreams aren't as empty as my wallet seems to be

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