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New Frace allows suicide bomber abord US bound flight
Just on the news here - bomber had plastique in his shoes & tried to set it off while flight was heading to US.

Alert hostess spotted him & tackeled him - passengers then helped try to subdue the man who reacted violently.

Plane was escorted to Boston Airport by US military jets.

No mention of if the passenger in question was an A-rab

[link|http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/22/plane.diverted/index.html|Just found this link on developing story]

Doug Marker
Expand Edited by dmarker2 Dec. 22, 2001, 10:19:44 PM EST
New Doing Maxwell Smart one better.
He had a phone in his shoe, but this is way scarier.

Now I've got this old Wall of Voodoo song running through my head.... "one false move will give it dead away..."

[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
New Great...
Now I guess this means an additional 'shoe search' at airports.

Of course, we could always be required to board naked.

Tom Sinclair
Speaker-to-Suits

A man threw himself through the window, a knife between his teeth, a
Kalashnikov automatic rifle in one hand, a grenade in the other. "I glaim
gis oteg in der gaing og der --" he paused. He tooke the knife out of his
teeth and began again.
-- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
New Perhaps the postal approach + (note dearth of females)
I hear that their particle accelerator is browning the paper and periodic packets burst into flame - and they've orderd 8 (?) more. So much for future of USPS.

Flying naked (a suggestion predating 9/11 quite a bit); ie with a paper smock provided.. invites illness lawsuits, es. in Anchorage? as you wait and wait on tarmac..

Given the Admin's rsponses so far - look for cavity searches (know how much C4 *both* genders Could conceal - er accessibly?) and ass er drug sniffing dogs getting a break from Devil Narcotic Marijuana seeking for that Other War thing) But see below = we hardly need worry pretty little heads about female body searches.. Only men suffer these terminal delusions.

I welcome these predictable developments of this now predictable Admin: it may be the final spark needed (sorry) for monorail and other rails.. and catching up with Europe, Japan. Betcha telecommuting can't be far behind: WTF's the diff. between a porta-potty, portable cubicle and - home (no wear on Corp carpets, johns, coffee machines). $$ will drive the decisions, as always. Saved fuel - just a bonus

Let's see if.. the first Female Will Blow Self Up.. to catalyze these changes. (Ever notice how women generally.. are ever so much more Sane about this religious self-delusion + martyrdom stuff? Think it could be that defective chromosome again?)

Has *anyone* noted a female self-immolating over this utter crap?
C'mon.. there must be *one* nutzo female in the whole carload! What ever could this *mean* ??



Ashton
some have room for a couple kilos inside the head (through nose - fuse out other nostril) plenty room there. What's a true-believer need with a brain?
Maybe after bin-L's prescribed sex-change: we can have the First?
New One thing I noted later
was the fact that passengers and crew subdued the man, rather than just going along.

This is a good trend.

Tom Sinclair
Speaker-to-Suits

He was aware that a wise man should always respect the folkways of others,
to use Carrot's happy phrase, but Vimes often had difficulty with this
idea. For one thing, there were people in the world whose folkways
consisted of gutting other people like clams and this was not a procedure
that commanded, in Vimes, any kind of respect at all.
-- (Terry Pratchett, The Fifth Elephant)
New Response, more than prophylaxis
The airport security is likely helping a bit. But I'd also noted that it was the response protocol rather than the on-ground, pre-flight, preventive measures, which seemed to catch and stop this guy. Kudos to the flight attendant and passengers.

IMO, disarming all passengers is counterproductive. In this case, bodymass and a dozen or so men seemed to do the trick. But a couple of PR-18s might have come in handy.

For those unfamiliar with the term, "PR-18: public-relations 18 inch", aka, nightstick.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New Just as nutso, but . .
. . more concerned with keeping their own family toeing the straight and narrow tradition.

Also, the promise of n+1 virgins doesn't do much for most women - however - if heaven were promising unlimited Visa . . .
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Actually, yes there have been

Let's see if.. the first Female Will Blow Self Up.. to catalyze these changes. (Ever notice how women generally.. are ever so much more Sane about this religious self-delusion + martyrdom stuff? Think it could be that defective chromosome again?)


Check out [link|http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:CLXKBXVmSUw:www.rediff.com/news/2001/jul/24ltte3.htm+woman+suicide+bomber&hl=en| source ]

All that is required (ever) is to make villain so evil, the cause so just, that the death of one is a small price to pay to prevent the evil from happening to thousands of others. (Basically the same cause-effect relationship that the abortion bombers were using.)

I glad that the passengers subdued the man. Sorry it had to happen that way. Really happy that this guy was a putz and not a professional (otherwise the plane would've gone up). Really sad for the next person who has a seizure on a plane (they're going to get the tar beaten out of 'em). I'm really annoyed at this putz (I think he's a copycat - that attempt was pathetic). And I'm really sad that people still haven't figured it out yet.

Ah well, thus is the death of current commercial aviation. Expect to see fractional jet ownership on the rise.

(and I still prefer the tonfa over the traditional nightstick. :-)
New Well there's always.. fly sedated.
Start your trip .. early! on Euphoria Airlines [brought to you by Rapture Associates]. Yes friends, for your safety, convenience and security - the best of that confiscated Sinsemilla is administered by our jack-booted but ever so friendly er 'camouflage suited' Happy Bunnies.

To further calm nerves and eliminate those bad vibes, we've brought back The Pullman Sleeper too! It's hard to think of blowing things up when.. you've got it up. No need to sneak into the johns in pairs any more - our accommodating stewards and stewardii can facilitate your every pleasure, especially in First Class.

Some things are pricelss but.. we've managed to put one on anyway - for all the rest there's cash.


The Foxes & Hunks of Euphoria Ltd
..a very closely-held privates Concern.
(never mind which way the wind blows, bunky)



PS - sorry to hear that Sri Lanka has bridged the gender gap. Twice. Lest this become a pattern, I think we'd best nuke all in that area, to prevent the spread of this hideous brain disease. If it infected women - there'd be no hope left.
Expand Edited by Missing User 70 Dec. 24, 2001, 04:57:33 PM EST
New Evil Grin - you're still focused on the passenger aspect...

Start your trip .. early! on Euphoria Airlines [brought to you by Rapture Associates]. Yes friends, for your safety, convenience and security - the best of that confiscated Sinsemilla is administered by our jack-booted but ever so friendly er 'camouflage suited' Happy Bunnies.


You're forgetting the people in the targets - unless you want to suggest that people starting working for Euphoria Enterprises in the 'big building that is a nice target'.

What happens when the next plane is a cargo jet? (Of course, then the terrorist will have to learn to "take off" - or sneak aboard and wait for the pilot to take off.)

(I still don't understand bin Laden - hell, if he's got the cash he's rumored to have, he could BUY a 757 to fly into a big building.)
New The buyout option
The Sept 11 attack price tag seems to be in the US$200-500k range. A new jet airliner is [link|http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/|going to run you] US$80+ million, depending on the options package (air is included, chrome, and sound system extra). A used aircraft could likely be aquired for a fraction of that price, but still an order or two of magnitude more than the cost of the attacks.

Crime pays. Particularly when you're using it to commit more crime.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New Just got back from LA
And saw that they are indeed now searching shoes.

I also had my toenail clippers confiscated at the security checkpoint (these were sort of like diagonal wire cutters).

Also found airport infrastructure to be completely overwhelmed with 4 hour waits to get to ticket counter to check bags, 1 hour wait to be security checked, 45 minute wait to obtain boarding pass at gate - for 1 hour flight to LA.

If you can't handle the passenger load at your ticket counter, best not to offer the flights I think.

This was Southwest Air BTW.
New So it's now quicker to drive.. SF--> LA
and maybe lots of other popular routes are close to that calculation. As the toe-nail clippers are confiscated and (airport security + troops) approaches passenger density (and we near flying naked):

Is it time to short all airlines and *finally* get a few fast trains? Since we can't build much anymore, I'm sure the French, Japanese can sell us the rolling stock. Regrind and straighten up a few choice *tracks, let the obsessed plug in laptops as they dine on now cheap lobster from Maine: sounds like a winner to me.

My guess: we haven't see nothin yet, of the fallout from 9/11. It's called dominoes.


Ashton

* re the fast tracks and the need for enclosure at >200 kphr: While that infrastructure is catching up, I propose that a train is preceeded by small radio-controlled scooter, far enough ahead to allow stopping distance should its video reveal a cow or Fundamentalist on the tracks: modern equiv. of the guy waving a lantern before a horseless carriage.. Oh - the scooter can stop reeel fast, and be nosed by the just-stopped main train. Cow lives.

Murican Suits got no smarts and damn sure - no imagination. Golf is all they know and, it shows. Apparently inbreeding and inherited wealth has bred them for BS not brains?
New Re: flying naked.
You might get a chuckle (or is that cackle) out of [link|http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/26/opinion/26FRIE.html|this] NY Times opinion piece.

Talk about sorting people:
but no religious fundamentalists of any stripe would ever be caught dead flying nude, or in the presence of nude women, and that alone would keep many potential hijackers out of the skies.
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New Are trains much safer?
When you have a train traveling at 200 mph, and there is an explosion in the first carriage, how many people will die?
New But, as the joke goes...
when the plane crashes they ask: "where there any survivors?"
New Where?
In the U.S., if they have trains going faster than 60-70 mph it's a miracle in itself.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New HSR safety record
The Germans have the best applied data -- the Hannover-Hamburg line of the ICE [link|http://www.o-keating.com/hsr/icecrash.htm|sufferd a derailment] in a middle car of a multi-car train, at 200kph (about 125 mph). Top cruising speed is nearer 280 kph, or 174 mph. The derailment itself wasn't quite so bad as the subsequent collision with an overpass, with fatal consequences for the track crew on the scene as well. The cause is commonly attributed to be a broken wheel (not detailed in the article above). The accident killed 70. This is the line my cousin and his fiance take regularly.


A French TGV derailed at 182 mph (294 kph) from axle failure, resulting in minor injuries.

As the old saw goes, it's not speed that kills, but the sudden deceleration at the end. A derailment in which rolling stock slides to a halt in open country is going to have a significantly different profile than a collision with other rolling stock, fixed structures, or incidents involving bridges, tunnels, or significant slopes (eg: mountainous regions).

Trains are substantially more structurally robust than airplanes. Though accelerating mass costs energy, trains aren't tasked with lifting it to altitude. Likewise, a small explosion on an airplane can result in a loss of pressure containment, which very frequently leads to major structural loss (though not always: loss of windows, and even hull sections, has occured on modern jetliners, without total loss of craft, passengers, or control). An aircraft has to contend with both horizontal decelleration and vertical impact. As the old drunk's saying goes, it's hard to fall off the floor.

The track record (so to speak) of high speed rail is quite good -- the German accident was the first in seven years. The disadvantage is a largely accessible infrastructure (the right of way), should a saboteur chose to lay waste to it. France, Germany, and Japan have a substantial and good history with the technology. England, by contrast, has a problem (and disaster) prone rail system widely seen as a national disgrace.

In the US, high-speed corridors with trains travelling up to 125 MPH exist, largely in the Boston-Washington area. It's proven popular both before and since Sept 11. Other projects are under exploration, largely SF-LA, Dallas-Houston, and possibly extending from Chicago, though these are largely moribund. Distances and population densities in the US make HSR a difficult prospect, though for transits of up to 500 miles, it should prove competitive with air travel.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
[link|http://kmself.ix.netcom.com/|/[link|http://kmself.ix.netcom.com/|http://kmself.ix.netcom.com/]]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New While I like the concept of rail...
Implementing rail in the US is going to be a huge investment. Imagine all of the support business for airlines (rental cars, hotels, restaurants, stores, parking lots, sky caps, etc.) and realize that they have to be duplicated for railroads as the mechanism is so similar. (

(Yes, you can take your car with you on a train, but most railroad travelers don't).

Perhaps the answer is to run the railroads to where these support mechanisms exist (ie: airports).

The other possible answer, perhaps, is to change the mechanism for rail transportation. Instead of parking your car, buying a ticket and climbing about a vehicle....perhaps the answer is to model it similar to our highway system - Drive your car to an on-ramp and let it transport you to your destination.
New Setting the dials on the Way-Forward machine
(which assumes we might not ever get over techno for its own sake ??)

I see:

Clones bred with tabla rasa for purposes of temporarily hosting - holographic-like personalities transmitted from afar. You visit by sending a er (local host ;-) to an address; in-corporate personality and.. it seems to be You. (This takes care of visits which are umm, other than platonic in nature).

Spin-offs: You Can! try that Grand Canyon leap on a Vincent, say - if willing to pay the deposit on the local host not returned OR (if you should make it - though I really wouldn't want to land umm astride.. aforementioned vehicle!) -- why then you could have your 15 minutes of fame in this sterile, work-less techno-society of The (Momentarily) Famous!

This-all can be a plausible solution (if idiotic - but then, so much else is too..) to energy usage per capita, when everyone's warehoused in cells in 1000-story Urbmons (thanks Mr. Silverberg).





(OK OK ... but the movie'd sell, be better than car-crashes, guns and heaped dead burned bodies shown in livid color) And some asshole'd actually like 'living' that way and start funding it.


\ufffd 2001 Ashton Human Progress Seminars Ltd.
'Progress' is always in the eye of the entrepreneur, not the folks what gots to live with it
New Got back from AZ yesterday...
...and they didn't check my shoes, nor anybody's shoes.

The lines at the security checkpoint would have been long, if they had more people working the front counter than they had people working the security checkpoint. Apparently, United Airlines has had some layoffs...
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Okay, so what's the news on the explosive?
First we hear it's C-4. Then we hear that's not confirmed. Then someone speculates it was C-4. Next they're just saying explosives.

Anyone have links to something firmer than jelly? Such as how this guy thought he'd detonate this (whatever it was) by lighting a fuse? Or whether he actually *could* have detonated it? Or whether he was just a deluded idiot with Silly Putty in his shoes?
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New I've heard rumor it's pentrite...but I don't know
what the hell that is. <grin>
New According to NY Times - triacetone triperoxide, TATP.
[link|http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Shoe-Bomb-Overseas.html|NY Times link.]
An FBI agent testifying at the hearing said Reid was carrying a homemade bomb on the Paris-Miami flight and that preliminary tests done on his sneakers showed the presence of triacetone triperoxide, TATP, a highly volatile plastic explosive.
It appears to be not terribly stable and in fact used to detonate the more reluctant explosives. [link|http://www.cybercrime.gov/bombmakinginfo.html|Reference.] (Search for "triacetone".)
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New Duh?
According to what I looked up (on Google), TATP is a "primary" explosive, i.e., one easy to set off -- primer material, not a bulk explosive.

If what he had was TATP, why wasn't he able to set it off? The little I was able to easily find indicates that a good whack should be sufficient.
Regards,
Ric
New Screwed-up weather.
It sounds like he had several connecting flights, and the shoes had gotten quite damp. I don't have a link, but it sounds like that was what saved everybody...
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
     Frace allows suicide bomber abord US bound flight - (dmarker2) - (25)
         Doing Maxwell Smart one better. - (marlowe) - (9)
             Great... - (tjsinclair) - (8)
                 Perhaps the postal approach + (note dearth of females) - (Ashton) - (7)
                     One thing I noted later - (tjsinclair) - (1)
                         Response, more than prophylaxis - (kmself)
                     Just as nutso, but . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                     Actually, yes there have been - (Simon_Jester) - (3)
                         Well there's always.. fly sedated. - (Ashton) - (2)
                             Evil Grin - you're still focused on the passenger aspect... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                 The buyout option - (kmself)
         Just got back from LA - (tuberculosis) - (9)
             So it's now quicker to drive.. SF--> LA - (Ashton) - (7)
                 Re: flying naked. - (a6l6e6x)
                 Are trains much safer? - (Arkadiy) - (5)
                     But, as the joke goes... - (Simon_Jester)
                     Where? - (wharris2)
                     HSR safety record - (kmself) - (2)
                         While I like the concept of rail... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                             Setting the dials on the Way-Forward machine - (Ashton)
             Got back from AZ yesterday... - (inthane-chan)
         Okay, so what's the news on the explosive? - (wharris2) - (4)
             I've heard rumor it's pentrite...but I don't know - (Simon_Jester)
             According to NY Times - triacetone triperoxide, TATP. - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                 Duh? - (Ric Locke) - (1)
                     Screwed-up weather. - (inthane-chan)

YOU are gonna lecture ME on 'clear prose'?
134 ms