Post #218,123
8/8/05 2:19:00 PM
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Nonsense, Peter.
The choice you are faced with IS 'does it make sense to use the source in business' or NOT. Like it or not, this IS anti-business. A major strength for the argument for business use of GPLed software is that the source is available, and modifiable to use to suit their needs. Until GPL3 is used that is; then there will be no advantage to modifying the software for themselves, to use for themselves. Any change they make, even if made to software they never distribute, will FORCE them to make their mods available to competitors. "then you're faced with a marvellous free choice: comply with the licence, or find something else." Nobody disputes this - but when the license is anti-business as the GPL is becoming with v3, don't be shocked when most business chooses something else. Sheesh. "It's anti-"get something for nothing and profit from it", is what it is.
" Horsecrap. It's the REMOVAL of a once valuable feature of GPLed software - the ability to modify it to suit your OWN needs. Sure, you could still make the mods, but when you are forced to distribute work you've done to all your competitors even if you never distribute the software you worked on, then the value of that feature is severely undercut, to say the least. You have NOT alleviated my fear that the GPLv3 is intended to become truly 'viral'. Hell, you haven't even given me any confidence that you bothered to think about the implications - so many others won't either. If anything, you have managed to INCREASE my apprehension. [link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #218,124
8/8/05 2:27:25 PM
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I repeat.
Use something else. Do your due diligence when making your software selections, and decide what restrictions you can and cannot live with.
Whining about the licence is like whining about the fact they wrote it in C++, Pascal, or Object COBOL: pointless.
And, honestly, who cares what "business" chooses? If you're that bothered about "business", why are you trying to get something for nothing? Pay up, like a proper little consumer!
A point you MUST remember is that the FSF gives not a flying fuck what "business" wants or needs. They're about Free Software, for their definition of "Free".
The software landscape is a Darwinian place; if the GPLv3 is so disastrously restrictive that no-one wants to use it, then no-one will.
Sure, people will be around to go, "I told you so", but the FSF is equally likely to respond "And?".
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #218,130
8/8/05 2:38:01 PM
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I care about this, Peter.
If the GPL's progress is imeded by developers just accepting this like sheep, then GPLed software will NOT be used in business. And business is where I use most software. Proprietary crap is what makes my life miserable; having crap changes forced on me by vendors with a marketing agenda, and NOT being able to fix problems with the software as I encounter them. GPL(v2) software offered a way out - v3 cuts off that hope. If my interpretation of it is correct, anyway, and being that you simply accept that interpretation, I must believe that it's a fair one.
Let's put it this way - I _DO_ do due diligence, and with GPL3, there is far less advantage to using GPLed software. The source becomes useless to business. Unless they want to be a software publisher - and, guess what? That ISN'T what most businesses want to do.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #218,133
8/8/05 2:40:51 PM
8/8/05 2:44:15 PM
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I don't doubt that you care.
I do, however, doubt that the developer community at large will either (a) care or (b) understand. More likely, they'll be somewhere between (a) and (b).
If the only people using GPL3 software are the FSF, then the problem will cure itself; people will move to a more relaxed licence or will stick with GPL2, which will remain a valid licence.
Storm in a teacup, matey.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Edited by pwhysall
Aug. 8, 2005, 02:44:15 PM EDT
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Post #218,140
8/8/05 2:53:44 PM
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It's true that it may be less of a problem
than my paranoia screams, but if so, it will only be because of paragraph 9 re: successor licenses: The Free Software Foundation may publish revised and/or new versions of the General Public License from time to time. Such new versions will be similar in spirit to the present version, but may differ in detail to address new problems or concerns.
Each version is given a distinguishing version number. If the Program specifies a version number of this License which applies to it and "any later version", you have the option of following the terms and conditions either of that version or of any later version published by the Free Software Foundation. If the Program does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published by the Free Software Foundation. IOW, if you get old versions of the software with v2 in the license when v3 comes out, they will be 'forkable' to new projects using the good v2 licensing. I truly hope that won't be necessary though - I'd prefer to see the 'web services' clause mitigated by the time the license is released. [link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #218,126
8/8/05 2:32:11 PM
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the fact that you dont distribute your software
and are still forced to give up the source code, that is cack, but how is it enforceable except in the case of disgruntled coders.Lets them walk out the door legally with their work product.
thanx,
bill
Just call me Mr. Lynch \\
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #218,131
8/8/05 2:39:50 PM
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disgruntled >>--> Whistleblower laws.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #218,127
8/8/05 2:32:33 PM
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Also, looky here:
Apache: Apache Licence
X.org: X11 Licence (without the knobs on)
Perl: Artistic Licence
FreeBSD: BSD Licence
Python: PSF Licence
OpenSolaris 10: Just kidding.
et cetera, et cetera.
There's a world of free software out there that doesn't even have to involve the GPL.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #218,135
8/8/05 2:41:18 PM
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ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #218134 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=218134|ICLRPD]
--
Steve
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Post #218,136
8/8/05 2:42:17 PM
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Woo hoo.
So what. That HAS nothing to do with any of my concerns re: the future of the GPL and GPLed software. But you knew that, didn't you?
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #218,137
8/8/05 2:46:09 PM
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Remember, existing GPLv2 software will remain GPLv2
You're free to fork and maintain under V2.
And that'll happen: just watch.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
|
Post #218,142
8/8/05 2:54:36 PM
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ROFL - just posted that is a mitigating factor...
*GRIN*
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #218,138
8/8/05 2:49:32 PM
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He who controls the compiler...
...FSF knew early on that all software hinges on having a freely available compiler. There's not much call for tweaking it, but I would note that practically every piece of free software out there does use GCC. Now, if GNU were to start clamping down on use of GCC libraries and the use of it for generating code under other licenses...
But then, everyone would just start forking off the current compiler which operates under the currently more liberal license. Which is more likely what will happen if business starts to get nervous with GPLv3. Just take the current snapshot of the software and tweak it to your hearts content. GNU can choose any license they want. But having licensed the software under terms less than GPLv3, they'll find that they're going to have a hard time getting followers.
As in all things, those who write the software get to determine what license they want to use. Those who consume the software get to decide whether they want to use the software. By all means, GNU has the right to put future versions under any license they wish. What they don't have the right to do is revoke the software that has been issued under past licenses. Nor do they have a right to automatically have producers and consumers of free software automatically fall in line.
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