People made that argument when Canada did it

Post #215,428 by ben_tilly 7/18/05 4:31:31 PM Reply	People made that argument when Canada did it Oddly enough, things didn't work out that way. You can assert it all you like, but assertions do not make proof. I think you're wrong, you think that I'm an idiot, and I'm perfectly happy leaving things in that state. Regards, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #215,450 by mmoffitt 7/18/05 5:04:28 PM Reply	Er, I don't think you're an idiot. And I didn't mean to imply that. You're out on the west coast now I think. Ask some physicians what they think of Kaiser. The thing is, I believe (from my very limited experience with people from Canada) that there is a sense of community present there that is lacking to a great extent here. That may have mitigated clinician flight. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #215,457 by ben_tilly 7/18/05 5:32:32 PM Reply	I think I've pointed this out before By specialty, take home salaries in Canada are not far from what they are in the USA. The two big differences from the point of view of a doctor are the much reduced litigation risk in Canada, and in Canada doctors don't have to deal with nearly as much paperwork as in the USA. The biggest single difference from the point of view of the medical system is that there are very different ratios of people in different specialties. (IIRC about 30% of US doctors are general practitioners vs about 70% in Canada.) There is no comparison between how single payer works in Canada, and an HMO from hell like Kaiser. The fact that you think there is tells me that you know even less about Canada than you think you do. Incidentally Canada as a whole has no sense of national identity (other than "we are not the USA"), and my experience with both countries leads me to believe that you get about as much sense of community in a small US city as in a Canadian city of the same size. I don't see "a sense of community" as a big cultural difference between the two countries. Regards, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #215,609 by mmoffitt 7/19/05 1:23:34 PM Reply	You misinterpretted my Kaiser question. I asked that question because I knew physicians hated Kaiser (I worked there for a time in the laboratory). And, IME, the chief reason that physicians hate Kaiser is that Kaiser made the poor little MD's work too hard for too little money. Around here, NE Indiana, we get a few clinicians from Canada who left for the same reason: they can make a ton more money here than they can 100 miles north. In their cases, Canada's gain is our loss. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #215,649 by ben_tilly 7/19/05 4:50:29 PM Reply	As far as I can see I understood your point perfectly And my point remains valid. There is no comparison between Kaiser and how things work in Canada. I repeat, the fact that you think they are comparable illustrates how little you know about Canada. As for your example, the number of MDs who choose to move is low. Sure, there are some. However there are also some who choose to practice in Canada rather than the USA because there they reduce the hassle of liability and insurance companies. Unless you can demonstrate a trend, a few anecdotes either way are meaningless. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #215,652 by mmoffitt 7/19/05 5:06:49 PM Reply	Where did I suggest Canada was like Kaiser? Oh yeah, I didn't. Nice (second) try though at mischaracterizing what I said. bcnu, Mikem It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
Post #215,673 by ben_tilly 7/19/05 7:46:41 PM Reply	Try here... [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=215450\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=215450] Given context, you're indicating that we should look to Kaiser to get a sense of what physicians think about socialized medicine. What you're missing is that the main thing limiting clinician flight is that clinicians don't have a big incentive to flee Canada. Now the plan for universal medicine that Hillary created does look like Kaiser. Which is why I object to it. But that doesn't resemble at all how Canada works. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #215,679 by Another Scott 7/19/05 8:01:20 PM Reply	I didn't read it that way. I didn't read it as a implying that Kaiser was somehow similar to Canada's system. I read it as an aside. But to be clearer, there should have been some parentheses or a separate paragraph in there somewhere, I think. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #215,726 by CRConrad 7/20/05 3:25:12 AM Reply	I think he was contrasting Kaiser to (his image of) Canada
Post #215,733 by ben_tilly 7/20/05 10:29:46 AM Reply	It sure doesn't look like that to me It looks to me like he thinks they are similar, except that Canada has more of a sense of community which makes doctors more willing to be there. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #215,736 by CRConrad 7/20/05 10:48:55 AM Reply	Your hypothesis has the weakness... ...that it doesn't square with the conclusion one can draw from the sum total of many of his other posts -- in some he criticises HMOs, and in some (others) he praises (his perception of) Canada. Nor with what Mike himself said shortly after the post we're dissecting -- "I didn't mean to say they're similar", or words to that effect. Mine lacks that weakness, in that it squares with both of the above. But, hey, whatever floats your boat. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]

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