not quite the same, is it?

Post #211,010

6/12/05 2:14:55 PM

Saith imric:

Well, I guess that Liberals really ARE out to destroy religion, they really ARE pro-terrorist, they really ARE incapable of waging war, they really ARE anti-family.

After all, they never protested enough, they never disavowed enough, they weren't bg-mouthed enough to change that perception.

Please cite for us several public statements each by identifiable "liberals" that

—advocate the destruction of religion,

—support "terrorism,"

—profess the lack of any ability to wage war,

—oppose "families."

You gave us a litany of right-wing caricatures of liberalism, not of positions actually advanced by the American center-left (actually the Democrats would be considered center-right in most of the other industrialized democracies). Todd provided an ample sample of damning soundbites from what you will note that I described as "fundie nutcakes" and not as "Christians" or even "conservatives." These people and their supporters are many of them more or less disreputable and embarrassing, and the GOP tends not to trot them out publicly except in very selective markets, but they are a component of the machine, and whether by inadvertence or design they may come one day to form the nucleus of our own home-grown brownshirts.

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #211,020

by imric

6/12/05 3:42:34 PM

6/12/05 4:00:07 PM

Doesn't matter, does it.

Since I was responding to Ash's 'perception = reality' crap.

Further, I agree that the bigmouths are a problem, and I don't consider them to even BE Christians.

It was only when he descended to the slander of the whole set of Christians that I spoke up. As usually do. I don't like to see posters, intellects I respect, falling into categorical error. It personally annoys me because I feel I am being included here, when I believe the following concerning religion and society:

Church and State should be separate, it minimizes corruption and the effects of corruption in both.

People should be free to choose their own religion or lack of it. You can't force anyone to come to God, the idea itself iis ridiculous.

Subverting science for religious priorities is stupid, and the act of those profoundly lacking in faith. When this becomes a religio-political priority, disaster will follow.

Categorical errors (often resulting in 'group x is evil, group y is superior/inferior, etc, etc') are the key to demagogery, and are the error that has caused untold human misery throughout human history. I know you didn't like it when I pointed out some of the ridiculous categories that the neocons have managed to label the set of Liberals with. I don't like people I respect inferring that a) I support the evil bastards that infest US politics now, b) that I don't open my mouth about the bastards. I also don't like it when people suggest my POV is rare; among the Christians I know, I can only think of one that supports the nonsensical bile being spewed from Neocon (Religicans?) Fundies, and he was always a kneejerk Republican.

"they are a component of the machine, and whether by inadvertence or design they may come one day to form the nucleus of our own home-grown brownshirts."

Here we agree, and it scares the hell out of me. (not the agreement, the statement *grin*)

[link|http://www.runningworks.com|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Edited by imric June 12, 2005, 04:00:07 PM EDT

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Post #211,063

by tuberculosis

6/13/05 12:52:43 AM

8/21/07 6:35:38 AM

RE: Bigmouths

>I agree that the bigmouths are a problem, and I don't consider them to even BE Christians.

I don't either. But they do manage to influence large numbers of christians. How to discredit them and deflate their power base? Perhaps by hilighting their lack of real christian values and their conflicts with genuine doctrine I hope.

Heck - Jesus himself advocated separation from gov/non-politicism when he told the disciples "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's".

I'm primarily interested in cutting these charlatans off from their powerbase - also in preventing faith based legislation.

Otherwise I don't give a damn what you believe or how you want to live your life as long as it doesn't impact me and mine.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush

Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:35:38 AM EDT

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Post #211,024

by boxley

6/12/05 3:56:55 PM

oooh, challenges :-)

advocating the destruction of religion
Engles [link|http://www.marxists.org/archive/thalheimer/works/diamat/|http://www.marxists....mer/works/diamat/]
[link|http://www.iidb.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-32963.html|http://www.iidb.org/....php/t-32963.html] WDYHRSM?

terrierists
[link|http://www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/s11/churchill.html|http://www.kersplebe...11/churchill.html]
although I well understand his point of view

profess the lack of any ability to wage war
you :-)
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=211007|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=211007]

oppose "families."
Bernardo Ruiz
[link|http://www.progressive.org/mediaproj04/mprm2504.html|http://www.progressi...j04/mprm2504.html]

The country is not overpopulated, and why single out immigrants? Why not oppose families that have a lot of children?

thanx,
bill

All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #211,028

by rcareaga

6/12/05 4:13:34 PM

move to strike as non-responsive

First and second cited, not "liberals" (unless you choose to define "liberals" as the set of individuals ≠ "conservative Christians"), the first being a dead Marxist and the second an imprudent and impudent academic who would certainly disdain the term "liberal." Third citation does not support the position you attach to it; fourth is quite irrelevant.

cordially,

Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.

Post #211,030

by boxley

6/12/05 4:17:31 PM

liberals do not define the term, rightwingers do

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