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New So much for fair trials
Used to be that we'd at least try to make a pretense that fair trials and justice actually meant something. We'd go to lengths to scold those nasty dictatorial regimes that held people in detention without trial, relying on unidentified evidence for conviction. Nowadays, we don't seem to even put forth an effort, Gitmo being the most obvious end, wherein a gitmo trial judge can say something as [link|http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7948688/|outlandish as]:
"I don\ufffdt care about international law. I don\ufffdt want to hear the words international law again."
Personally, I think there are some people at Gitmo who probably "deserve" to be there. And there are some that probably don't "deserve" to be there. We used to have this mistaken belief that protecting the rights of the innocent was by far the most important aspect of a justice system. Not always perfect, as some guilty are let off. And some innocents still manage to get entangled. But it was a system that's supposed to have some checks and balances in place.

And unspoken of in all this mess is the arrests being made in those countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, etc... Utter silence on the part of the Americans, because now they realize that they are using quite similar tactics.
New Checks and balances are un-Christian!
Just ask Pat Robertson, Phillis Schlafly, Rex Reed, and the other Spokespeople for Christianity\ufffd

(Now Skip, before you get your undies in a bunch, note the use of the \ufffd, which is shorthand for <jokeson>)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New *chuckle* dinnae worry - I caught it.
I only object to using terms like that when they imply global, unqualified scope...
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 


New Strictly speaking...
We used to have this mistaken belief that protecting the rights of the innocent was by far the most important aspect of a justice system.


This belief really only extends (according to some interpretations of the Constitution) to US citizens. The Constitution does not state that it will apply to individuals of other countries.
Frankly, given US history (War of 1812, etc.), this is a pretty fair statment.

That's one reason why the capture of US citizens were a big deal down in Gitmo.

The only issue that remains is how we treat our prisoners -- it will affect how our people (when they are taken prisoner) will be treated.

Note: their treatment is far better than it would be in a secret war - which I have advocated.
New Some interepretations led to trying to apply that to....
...U.S. citizens as well, it's just that the Courts had ruled in the past that they clearly had jurisdiction. And the interpretation that you cite is just that, an extra-judicial interpretation that has not been ruled on by the courts (at least not yet). Article III of the Constitution does say that:
The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity... between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.... The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.
Add to that the fact that foreign citizens on U.S. soil have been granted the same rights to trial (like the shoe bomber), and that Gitmo is currently under U.S. supervision (i.e. it is effectively a U.S. territory), and I think the interpretation is on a shakey foundation.

But, in the case that the packed Courts do say that detainees of the U.S. government do not "deserve" fair trials, I still think it makes a mockery to hold such kangaroo courts where the evidence is not put forward and even the names of the detainees is "secret". The real issue is that the U.S. has detained these people for three years and has shown no inclination to produce public evidence to support this detention. Hell, if the Supreme Court had not said that the detainees could challenge their status as "Enemy Combatants", even these feeble attempts at hearings would not have taken place.
New But the core outrage is the atmosphere of,
How many legions has the Pope the USSC?

Our bedfellows are now Napoleon, Hitler and Stalin.
..all rolled-into the smirking chimp.


Judges: best get some at-home Protection; you can never be sure Who sent those guys in ski-masks.. Anymore.



New You're right, it's not been settled by the courts...
the shoe-bomber is an interesting counter-example.

But, in the case that the packed Courts do say that detainees of the U.S. government do not "deserve" fair trials, I still think it makes a mockery to hold such kangaroo courts where the evidence is not put forward and even the names of the detainees is "secret". The real issue is that the U.S. has detained these people for three years and has shown no inclination to produce public evidence to support this detention. Hell, if the Supreme Court had not said that the detainees could challenge their status as "Enemy Combatants", even these feeble attempts at hearings would not have taken place.


Also agreed. And I think this is going to come back to haunt us.
     So much for fair trials - (ChrisR) - (6)
         Checks and balances are un-Christian! - (jb4) - (1)
             *chuckle* dinnae worry - I caught it. - (imric)
         Strictly speaking... - (Simon_Jester) - (3)
             Some interepretations led to trying to apply that to.... - (ChrisR) - (2)
                 But the core outrage is the atmosphere of, - (Ashton)
                 You're right, it's not been settled by the courts... - (Simon_Jester)

Several ICLRPDs in there, but I'll let others pick out their favorites.
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