I'm ambivalent.

Post #206,477 by Another Scott 5/8/05 8:53:31 AM Reply	I'm ambivalent. Since drivers licenses are pretty-much defacto national ID cards (i.e. they're required ID for many, many transactions), it seems reasonable to me that there be common standards. But what those standards are, how they're constructed and what information goes into the databases are likely to be things that Congress doesn't get right. :-( [link\|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/05/AR2005050501705_pf.html\|This] story points out some more potential problems with Real ID. I think stories like these are only going to be front-page news when the political opposition in Congress makes it an issue. The press seems to need an external filter [1] to decide whether something is important or not. If the Democrats won't raise Hell about it, the press may figure it's not worth the trouble. Where are the Democrats? My $0.02. Cheers, Scott. [1] US TV news' filter, of course, is whether there is video tape of the event. No video? No story.
Post #206,494 by pwhysall 5/8/05 1:17:56 PM Reply	Re: I'm ambivalent. I'm opposed to ID cards. I speak for myself with respect to the proposals laid out by the UK Government, and I expect that a number of these points will resonate with our Special Friends across the water. I'm opposed to them because we are being lied to about what they are for. They will not prevent terrorist attacks, nor will they help to prevent terrorist attacks. They will not reduce crime. They will not increase my safety, security or privacy. I will receive no benefit from having an ID card; I will still need to obtain a passport to travel, a driving licence to drive, credit cards to spend money and so on and so forth. They will cost me a lot of money. I do not believe that the Government can execute on the IT requirement. The track record is very poor in this area. Given their more-or-less total uselessness as an instrument for fighting crime and terror, I'm more than a little mystified as to why we're having them foisted upon us. I can only surmise that they are part of an increasingly authoritarian style of government. Oh, there is one group of people who want strong biometric ID cards. Identity thieves. Sorting out a case of identity theft will become extremely difficult and costly; this will considerably enlarge the window of opportunity in which the ID thieves can operate. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,503 by Another Scott 5/8/05 2:16:43 PM Reply	I understand and agree with you on all that. But how do driver's licenses work over there? If you travel to Scotland and rent a car, do you drag out a UK drivers license or is there an English one or what? Is there an EU drivers license or does each member country still have their own? I'm too lazy to Google. ;-) Over here, driver's licenses are the most widely used form of photo ID and are generally regarded as second only to passports for verifying identity. The exception (and it's a big one) are fake licenses used by HS and college kids to get alcohol... As the WP story pointed out, in Virginia it used to be far too easy to get a driver's license with minimal identification. That's why so many of the 9/11 hijackers got theirs here. Once one had a license, lots of things were available that wouldn't be if they didn't have one. Having uniform state driver's license identification requirements seems to me to be a reasonable thing. I think we can have that without having a national clearinghouse or a giant Oracle somewhere and without it becoming a de-facto internal passport. I agree that a national ID card is a bad idea. It won't make us safer and will make it too easy for identifying information to be misused. Cheers, Scott.
Post #206,504 by pwhysall 5/8/05 2:39:51 PM Reply	Re: I understand and agree with you on all that. The UK driving licence covers all of the UK. The same rules of the road (i.e. The Highway Code) apply in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I can drive in EU countries without further paperwork, too. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,505 by Another Scott 5/8/05 2:44:23 PM Reply	Same here, but the rules to get a license were different. Do you know if there are uniform EU standards for identification for getting a license? Thanks. Cheers, Scott.
Post #206,508 by pwhysall 5/8/05 3:04:52 PM Reply	Not AFAIK. You simply have to comply with your country's rules for so doing. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,506 by boxley 5/8/05 2:57:11 PM Reply	I recently had to get a Georgia license needed to use the same rules as an I-9 for employment to prove citizenship, got the fingerprints from my index fingers had to sign a signature card and took a photo. Now all this sez to me there are a lot of unlicensed (therefore untestd) illegals driving around with no insurance (since you cant get it without a license) let them provide their national id's fingerprint them and get them roadteted and make them buy insurance. We would know who they claim to be and where they live, have them finacially covered and safer drivers. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #206,509 by pwhysall 5/8/05 3:05:31 PM Reply	Interestingly... ...you can get insurance here without a licence. And all you have to present to get your car tax disc is a valid insurance certificate, the V5 form (registered keeper document) and a valid MOT certificate. At no point in the process are you required to present a licence. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,588 by CRConrad 5/9/05 3:12:16 AM Reply	Because you're insuring the vehicle, not yourself, right?
Post #206,590 by pwhysall 5/9/05 3:38:48 AM Reply	Yes and no. The vehicle is insured. The driver can be named; for example, both myself and SWMBO have each other as named drivers on the other's car. The act of applying for insurance asks you whether or not you have a licence and whether or not it's provisional, but you can insure a car with no licence. It just costs more. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,591 by CRConrad 5/9/05 5:06:19 AM Reply	So what happens if someone else drives (and crashes) it?
Post #206,592 by pwhysall 5/9/05 5:08:10 AM Reply	Re: So what happens if someone else drives (and crashes) it? I get it in the shorts, is what happens. And they get a wellying for driving without insurance. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,596 by CRConrad 5/9/05 7:43:39 AM Reply	Ah. Yes, ye're weird, ye Brits. Almost as weird as the Yanx.
Post #206,597 by pwhysall 5/9/05 7:47:14 AM Reply	What's weird about that? Also, the (uninsured) driver gets it in the shorts for driving sans insurance. At this point I should point out that most insurance policies have a clause that covers any driver (who's using the vehicle with the owner's consent) for at least third party. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,599 by CRConrad 5/9/05 9:19:12 AM Reply	Ah, OK... Not all that weird, then.
Post #206,609 by boxley 5/9/05 9:58:31 AM Reply	with the respect of liability insurance I suppose you could get an underwriter if you lose your license for misbehavior, I havnt done so., Over here its called SR22 insurance and is hidiously expensive and it takes 3 years after you regain your license to get the rates to drop.Not much chance of sub minimum wage types such as non papered immigrants to afford such coverage. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #206,528 by Simon_Jester 5/8/05 5:07:51 PM 5/8/05 5:12:34 PM Reply	Re: Democrats... Democrats who oppose the bill are going to be labeled pro-terrorism. I agree that it would be nice if Democrats stood up against this, hell, I'd be happy if Liberatians stood up against this.... ...but it doesn't excuse the party in power from pushing it. Postscript: Just remember kiddies, the 9/11 hijackers did NOT using false ids on 9/11. They used their REAL NAMES. (We're just fixing the non-existant problem.) Edited by Simon_Jester May 8, 2005, 05:12:34 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #206,531 by Another Scott 5/8/05 5:20:10 PM Reply	No excuse all around, AFAICS.
Post #206,685 by Simon_Jester 5/9/05 6:01:26 PM Reply	Website... [link\|http://www.unrealid.com/\|UnRealID]
Post #206,690 by tuberculosis 5/9/05 6:28:27 PM Reply	Cool! I mailed Peter's post as a letter to my congress critters. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #206,714 by jb4 5/9/05 8:55:39 PM Reply	But..but..we're SO good at fighting the Last War ...Almost as good as fighting a non existant war (e.g. Drugs, terrorism, etc.). But we're Muricans, Dammit! We need to be good at something.... jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #206,724 by boxley 5/9/05 10:56:38 PM Reply	we are good at something have you seen any porno sites lately? First in class exploiting the smaller of our female bretheren. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]

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