Why is this not front page news?

Post #206,472 by tuberculosis 5/8/05 2:45:11 AM 5/8/05 2:47:25 AM Reply	Why is this not front page news? [link\|http://news.com.com/FAQ+How+Real+ID+will+affect+you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html\|http://news.com.com/...28_3-5697111.html] Starting three years from now, if you live or work in the United States, you'll need a federally approved ID card to travel on an airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments, or take advantage of nearly any government service. Practically speaking, your driver's license likely will have to be reissued to meet federal standards. The Real ID Act hands the Department of Homeland Security the power to set these standards and determine whether state drivers' licenses and other ID cards pass muster. Only ID cards approved by Homeland Security can be accepted "for any official purpose" by the feds. [link\|http://www.politechbot.com/2005/05/06/house-approves-real/\|http://www.politechb...se-approves-real/] Today, Congressman Robert Wexler (D-FL) voted against the emergency supplemental appropriations conference report (H.R. 1268), which passed the House by a vote of 368 to 58. This bill included a provision sponsored by Congressman James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) known as the REAL ID Act, which would institute controversial immigration changes. REAL ID removes the right of judicial review - including habeas corpus - for people fleeing persecution, undermines the privacy rights of even native-born Americans, burdens the states with complex and unfunded ID requirements, makes it harder for battered women to hide from their abusers, scapegoats the immigrant community and does nothing to address the actual problem of border security and enforcement in the United States. The Republican leadership shamelessly chose to bundle important aid with controversial new legislation forcing members of Congress to thoughtlessly consent to REAL ID in order to support tsunami assistance, increased funding for military personnel - including increased military death gratuities and life insurance benefits for active duty troops. ========= When this becomes law we will all be fitted with electronic tags. Getting to be time to go soon. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Edited by tuberculosis May 8, 2005, 02:47:25 AM EDT Why is this not front page news? [link\|http://www.politechbot.com/2005/05/06/house-approves-real/\|http://www.politechb...se-approves-real/] Today, Congressman Robert Wexler (D-FL) voted against the emergency supplemental appropriations conference report (H.R. 1268), which passed the House by a vote of 368 to 58. This bill included a provision sponsored by Congressman James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) known as the REAL ID Act, which would institute controversial immigration changes. REAL ID removes the right of judicial review - including habeas corpus - for people fleeing persecution, undermines the privacy rights of even native-born Americans, burdens the states with complex and unfunded ID requirements, makes it harder for battered women to hide from their abusers, scapegoats the immigrant community and does nothing to address the actual problem of border security and enforcement in the United States. The Republican leadership shamelessly chose to bundle important aid with controversial new legislation forcing members of Congress to thoughtlessly consent to REAL ID in order to support tsunami assistance, increased funding for military personnel - including increased military death gratuities and life insurance benefits for active duty troops. ========= When this becomes law we will all be fitted with electronic tags. Getting to be time to go soon. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush Collapse All History
Post #206,477 by Another Scott 5/8/05 8:53:31 AM Reply	I'm ambivalent. Since drivers licenses are pretty-much defacto national ID cards (i.e. they're required ID for many, many transactions), it seems reasonable to me that there be common standards. But what those standards are, how they're constructed and what information goes into the databases are likely to be things that Congress doesn't get right. :-( [link\|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/05/AR2005050501705_pf.html\|This] story points out some more potential problems with Real ID. I think stories like these are only going to be front-page news when the political opposition in Congress makes it an issue. The press seems to need an external filter [1] to decide whether something is important or not. If the Democrats won't raise Hell about it, the press may figure it's not worth the trouble. Where are the Democrats? My $0.02. Cheers, Scott. [1] US TV news' filter, of course, is whether there is video tape of the event. No video? No story.
Post #206,494 by pwhysall 5/8/05 1:17:56 PM Reply	Re: I'm ambivalent. I'm opposed to ID cards. I speak for myself with respect to the proposals laid out by the UK Government, and I expect that a number of these points will resonate with our Special Friends across the water. I'm opposed to them because we are being lied to about what they are for. They will not prevent terrorist attacks, nor will they help to prevent terrorist attacks. They will not reduce crime. They will not increase my safety, security or privacy. I will receive no benefit from having an ID card; I will still need to obtain a passport to travel, a driving licence to drive, credit cards to spend money and so on and so forth. They will cost me a lot of money. I do not believe that the Government can execute on the IT requirement. The track record is very poor in this area. Given their more-or-less total uselessness as an instrument for fighting crime and terror, I'm more than a little mystified as to why we're having them foisted upon us. I can only surmise that they are part of an increasingly authoritarian style of government. Oh, there is one group of people who want strong biometric ID cards. Identity thieves. Sorting out a case of identity theft will become extremely difficult and costly; this will considerably enlarge the window of opportunity in which the ID thieves can operate. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,503 by Another Scott 5/8/05 2:16:43 PM Reply	I understand and agree with you on all that. But how do driver's licenses work over there? If you travel to Scotland and rent a car, do you drag out a UK drivers license or is there an English one or what? Is there an EU drivers license or does each member country still have their own? I'm too lazy to Google. ;-) Over here, driver's licenses are the most widely used form of photo ID and are generally regarded as second only to passports for verifying identity. The exception (and it's a big one) are fake licenses used by HS and college kids to get alcohol... As the WP story pointed out, in Virginia it used to be far too easy to get a driver's license with minimal identification. That's why so many of the 9/11 hijackers got theirs here. Once one had a license, lots of things were available that wouldn't be if they didn't have one. Having uniform state driver's license identification requirements seems to me to be a reasonable thing. I think we can have that without having a national clearinghouse or a giant Oracle somewhere and without it becoming a de-facto internal passport. I agree that a national ID card is a bad idea. It won't make us safer and will make it too easy for identifying information to be misused. Cheers, Scott.
Post #206,504 by pwhysall 5/8/05 2:39:51 PM Reply	Re: I understand and agree with you on all that. The UK driving licence covers all of the UK. The same rules of the road (i.e. The Highway Code) apply in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I can drive in EU countries without further paperwork, too. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,505 by Another Scott 5/8/05 2:44:23 PM Reply	Same here, but the rules to get a license were different. Do you know if there are uniform EU standards for identification for getting a license? Thanks. Cheers, Scott.
Post #206,508 by pwhysall 5/8/05 3:04:52 PM Reply	Not AFAIK. You simply have to comply with your country's rules for so doing. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,506 by boxley 5/8/05 2:57:11 PM Reply	I recently had to get a Georgia license needed to use the same rules as an I-9 for employment to prove citizenship, got the fingerprints from my index fingers had to sign a signature card and took a photo. Now all this sez to me there are a lot of unlicensed (therefore untestd) illegals driving around with no insurance (since you cant get it without a license) let them provide their national id's fingerprint them and get them roadteted and make them buy insurance. We would know who they claim to be and where they live, have them finacially covered and safer drivers. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #206,509 by pwhysall 5/8/05 3:05:31 PM Reply	Interestingly... ...you can get insurance here without a licence. And all you have to present to get your car tax disc is a valid insurance certificate, the V5 form (registered keeper document) and a valid MOT certificate. At no point in the process are you required to present a licence. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,588 by CRConrad 5/9/05 3:12:16 AM Reply	Because you're insuring the vehicle, not yourself, right?
Post #206,590 by pwhysall 5/9/05 3:38:48 AM Reply	Yes and no. The vehicle is insured. The driver can be named; for example, both myself and SWMBO have each other as named drivers on the other's car. The act of applying for insurance asks you whether or not you have a licence and whether or not it's provisional, but you can insure a car with no licence. It just costs more. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,591 by CRConrad 5/9/05 5:06:19 AM Reply	So what happens if someone else drives (and crashes) it?
Post #206,592 by pwhysall 5/9/05 5:08:10 AM Reply	Re: So what happens if someone else drives (and crashes) it? I get it in the shorts, is what happens. And they get a wellying for driving without insurance. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,596 by CRConrad 5/9/05 7:43:39 AM Reply	Ah. Yes, ye're weird, ye Brits. Almost as weird as the Yanx.
Post #206,597 by pwhysall 5/9/05 7:47:14 AM Reply	What's weird about that? Also, the (uninsured) driver gets it in the shorts for driving sans insurance. At this point I should point out that most insurance policies have a clause that covers any driver (who's using the vehicle with the owner's consent) for at least third party. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #206,599 by CRConrad 5/9/05 9:19:12 AM Reply	Ah, OK... Not all that weird, then.
Post #206,609 by boxley 5/9/05 9:58:31 AM Reply	with the respect of liability insurance I suppose you could get an underwriter if you lose your license for misbehavior, I havnt done so., Over here its called SR22 insurance and is hidiously expensive and it takes 3 years after you regain your license to get the rates to drop.Not much chance of sub minimum wage types such as non papered immigrants to afford such coverage. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #206,528 by Simon_Jester 5/8/05 5:07:51 PM 5/8/05 5:12:34 PM Reply	Re: Democrats... Democrats who oppose the bill are going to be labeled pro-terrorism. I agree that it would be nice if Democrats stood up against this, hell, I'd be happy if Liberatians stood up against this.... ...but it doesn't excuse the party in power from pushing it. Postscript: Just remember kiddies, the 9/11 hijackers did NOT using false ids on 9/11. They used their REAL NAMES. (We're just fixing the non-existant problem.) Edited by Simon_Jester May 8, 2005, 05:12:34 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #206,531 by Another Scott 5/8/05 5:20:10 PM Reply	No excuse all around, AFAICS.
Post #206,685 by Simon_Jester 5/9/05 6:01:26 PM Reply	Website... [link\|http://www.unrealid.com/\|UnRealID]
Post #206,690 by tuberculosis 5/9/05 6:28:27 PM Reply	Cool! I mailed Peter's post as a letter to my congress critters. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #206,714 by jb4 5/9/05 8:55:39 PM Reply	But..but..we're SO good at fighting the Last War ...Almost as good as fighting a non existant war (e.g. Drugs, terrorism, etc.). But we're Muricans, Dammit! We need to be good at something.... jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #206,724 by boxley 5/9/05 10:56:38 PM Reply	we are good at something have you seen any porno sites lately? First in class exploiting the smaller of our female bretheren. thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #206,515 by FuManChu 5/8/05 3:53:09 PM Reply	Re: Getting to be time to go soon. When nationality is a commodity, will the citizenship market heat up?
Post #206,725 by inthane-chan 5/9/05 10:57:17 PM Reply	More coverage and analysis. [link\|http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050509-4886.html\|http://arstechnica.c...0050509-4886.html] Best line from the discussion: Yikes, instead of paying $8 to see EpisodeIII, I'll just watch c-span And yes, this scares the SHIT out of me. The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the most discoveries, is not "Eureka!" but "That's funny..." -Isaac Asimov
Post #206,857 by Another Scott 5/10/05 9:51:32 PM Reply	It's done. 100:0 vote in the Senate. [link\|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/10/AR2005051001145.html\|Washington Post]: WASHINGTON -- Congress approved an additional $82 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan and combating terrorism worldwide on Tuesday, boosting the cost of the global effort since 2001 to more than $300 billion. The Senate approved the measure by a 100-0 vote Tuesday. The House easily approved the measure last week. It now goes to President Bush for his signature, which is certain. [...] Democrats used the opportunity to criticize the Bush administration for its Iraq policies and for failing to go through the normal budget process to pay for the wars. Many also assailed Republicans for tacking on immigration provisions. One has to read between the lines on that one. 100:0. [link\|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/10/AR2005051000158.html\|This] story has a little more about it: WASHINGTON -- New driver's license rules tucked in a military spending bill will create national identification cards for Americans and stick state governments with the bill, Republican Sen. Lamar Alexander said Tuesday. Alexander, R-Tenn., joined Democrats and state officials in railing against the White House-backed driver's license rules and other immigration measures before the Senate approved the $82 billion spending bill 100-0. The House approved it last week. [...] The House had included the rules and other the immigration provisions in its version of the bill paying for the U.S. operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Senate did not, but negotiators included them in the final bill. [...] What's wrong with this picture? In olden days the Senate leadership wouldn't allow unrelated amendments to be tacked onto appropriations bills. Also it used to be the case that the Senate and House conference committee that massaged the differences between bills would actually try to make a compromise between them. There was a reason for that. But not any more... What'll it be next? Maybe federal prison for flag burning? Yeah, that's the ticket. :-( Cheers, Scott.
Post #206,859 by tuberculosis 5/10/05 10:03:03 PM Reply	throw the bums out next election - simply vote for the challenger. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #206,963 by mmoffitt 5/11/05 4:09:52 PM Reply	I want NOTA on the ballot. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #206,876 by Simon_Jester 5/10/05 11:21:48 PM Reply	I am curious about this one.... what happens when a state DOESN'T implement the measures?
Post #206,882 by Another Scott 5/10/05 11:40:40 PM Reply	Let's see. My flippant answer is they lose their highway funding. That's the usual carrot/stick. But that's just a guess. Let's see what the [link\|http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c109:./temp/~c109Tirp0c\|HR 418 RFS] bill says: SEC. 205. GRANTS TO STATES. (a) In General- The Secretary may make grants to a State to assist the State in conforming to the minimum standards set forth in this title. (b) Authorization of Appropriations- There are authorized to be appropriated to the Secretary for each of the fiscal years 2005 through 2009 such sums as may be necessary to carry out this title. SEC. 206. AUTHORITY. (a) Participation of Secretary of Transportation and States- All authority to issue regulations, set standards, and issue grants under this title shall be carried out by the Secretary, in consultation with the Secretary of Transportation and the States. (b) Compliance With Standards- All authority to certify compliance with standards under this title shall be carried out by the Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security and the States. (c) Extensions of Deadlines- The Secretary may grant to a State an extension of time to meet the requirements of section 202(a)(1) if the State provides adequate justification for noncompliance. It looks like the Secretary of Homeland Security and/or Transportation has discretion to supply or withhold funding to the states. In other words, it looks to me like a state might not get its highway funding.... :-/ I don't see anything else about what might happen to a state which didn't comply. I think we'll have to keep a careful eye on the Judicial Review restrictions and Waiver of Laws sections. :-( Cheers, Scott.

Welcome to IWETHEY!