26%?!?!?!?

Some numbers:

[link|http://www.newdefenceagenda.org/index.html?http://www.newdefenceagenda.org/news_detail.asp?ID=169&frame=yes~main|Here]:

European defense budgets are weighed down with personnel costs at the expense of procurement and research, Keohane said. He cited a 2002 report by U.S. consulting firm McKinsey & Co., which found that EU countries in NATO spent $14,000 per soldier on equipment, while the U.S. spent $44,000. The Europeans spent an average of $4,000 per soldier for research and development, compared with $28,000 spent on the average U.S. soldier.

[link|http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/Article.cfm?issuetocid=138&ArchiveIssueID=19|Linky 2]:

According to the study, U.S. spending on defense was 3.0% of gross domestic product in 1999, while European countries averaged 2.3%. This compares to 1985 figures of 6.7% for the U.S. and 3.7% for Europe.

[...]

The U.K. also plans to boost defense spending\ufffdfrom $34.80 billion in 2001-2002 to $37.75 billion in 2003-2004. This is the first real increase in U.K. defense expenditure since 1985.

The UK population was [link|http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=6|59.6 million in 2003] (giving about $633 per person for defense), compared to ~ [link|http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html|296 million] for the US currently. The US Defense Budget was [link|http://www.google.com/search?q=US+defense+budget&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8|$375 B in 2004] (depending on whether you count authorized or what was actually spent) - or ~ $1267 per person.

I think the other big countries in Europe generally spend less on defense than the UK does, but I haven't checked the numbers.

I don't think it's a new phenomenon, based on the aiaa link quoted above. And it really shouldn't be surprising. The US spends money on things that Europe doesn't - big carriers, lots of troops in Asia, lots of R&D, etc.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.

Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

Post #203,798 by andread 4/18/05 3:50:02 PM Reply	26%?!?!?!? this would send the right for all those guns you know they have 15% is what they often talk about but 0% is their fantasy A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #203,800 by mmoffitt 4/18/05 3:58:37 PM Reply	If 26% gets you healthcare, education and transportation it's WELL worth it. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #203,809 by pwhysall 4/18/05 4:16:05 PM Reply	I pay out about 40%... ...here in The People's Republic of Soviet Englandistan. I'll leave it to you to decide whether our welfare, education, transport and health infrastructure is worth it. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #203,810 by mmoffitt 4/18/05 4:17:05 PM Reply	I didn't include welfare in the 26%. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #203,812 by pwhysall 4/18/05 4:18:46 PM Reply	I can't separate it, in my mind. I'm an old-school cradle-to-grave socialist, see. I still believe in that old "a hand up, not a hand out" nonsense that Blair and Howard seem to be backing away from in favour of "scroungers who eat all your tax and are probably asylum seekers anyway so vote for me please" nonsense. Yes, I'm voting Liberal Democrat this time around. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #203,822 by mmoffitt 4/18/05 4:40:14 PM Reply	You didn't have to tell me that. All you Brits are Pink-O's. [image\|/forums/images/warning.png\|0\|This is sarcasm...] bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #203,823 by pwhysall 4/18/05 4:41:50 PM Reply	:-P Feh, you're just jealous. [note for the humour-impaired. I saw the sign, and this is irony.] Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #203,878 by Arkadiy 4/19/05 9:25:58 AM Reply	You all leave out the military If England had to keep an army on the American scale, your 40% would have bought you squat. ------ 179. I will not outsource core functions. -- [link\|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm\|.]
Post #203,880 by folkert 4/19/05 10:11:08 AM Reply	They do have a similar amount per capita, I believe. So, for every 1000 residents they have $MILITARY_SPENDING_PER_1000_RESIDENTS the US does. At least that is what I remember recently seeing. But that could be different now that the "WAR on terrorism and non-jesus believers (or was that jesus non-believers)" has been on for a while. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [image\|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg\|\|\|\|]
Post #203,881 by Another Scott 4/19/05 10:32:57 AM Reply	Don't think so. Some numbers: [link\|http://www.newdefenceagenda.org/index.html?http://www.newdefenceagenda.org/news_detail.asp?ID=169&frame=yes~main\|Here]: European defense budgets are weighed down with personnel costs at the expense of procurement and research, Keohane said. He cited a 2002 report by U.S. consulting firm McKinsey & Co., which found that EU countries in NATO spent $14,000 per soldier on equipment, while the U.S. spent $44,000. The Europeans spent an average of $4,000 per soldier for research and development, compared with $28,000 spent on the average U.S. soldier. [link\|http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/Article.cfm?issuetocid=138&ArchiveIssueID=19\|Linky 2]: According to the study, U.S. spending on defense was 3.0% of gross domestic product in 1999, while European countries averaged 2.3%. This compares to 1985 figures of 6.7% for the U.S. and 3.7% for Europe. [...] The U.K. also plans to boost defense spending\ufffdfrom $34.80 billion in 2001-2002 to $37.75 billion in 2003-2004. This is the first real increase in U.K. defense expenditure since 1985. The UK population was [link\|http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=6\|59.6 million in 2003] (giving about $633 per person for defense), compared to ~ [link\|http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html\|296 million] for the US currently. The US Defense Budget was [link\|http://www.google.com/search?q=US+defense+budget&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8\|$375 B in 2004] (depending on whether you count authorized or what was actually spent) - or ~ $1267 per person. I think the other big countries in Europe generally spend less on defense than the UK does, but I haven't checked the numbers. I don't think it's a new phenomenon, based on the aiaa link quoted above. And it really shouldn't be surprising. The US spends money on things that Europe doesn't - big carriers, lots of troops in Asia, lots of R&D, etc. FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #203,882 by folkert 4/19/05 10:53:35 AM Reply	/me opens mouth, inserts boot -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [image\|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg\|\|\|\|]
Post #203,890 by SpiceWare 4/19/05 11:34:04 AM Reply	How much is because of us? Seems that if we're spending the money, then Europe doesn't have to. [link\|http://slate.msn.com/id/2105295/\|We Have How Many Troops in Europe?] President Bush told the Veterans of Foreign Wars convention on Monday that he planned to move more than 70,000 troops from Cold War-era bases in Europe and Asia to permanent bases on U.S. soil. ... Currently, the United States has 116,400 military personnel from all four services assigned to its European Command How much cash do our bases pump into the European economy? Might be nice to have it pump back into our own. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass\|Artistic Overpass]\n[link\|http://www.spiceware.org/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #203,924 by JayMehaffey 4/19/05 1:17:42 PM Reply	Not as much as you would think How much cash do our bases pump into the European economy? Might be nice to have it pump back into our own. Not as much as you would expect. In fact, because the base doesn't pay any tax but does use local services they tend to be a net money loser overall for towns in the US. Covering the schooling costs of the children of soldiers living on the base is the big killer. In the US the military pays a special fee to communities to offset the tax loss, but it isn't enough to cover it in full. I dont' know how it really works out in Europe though, I don't know if they pay anything nor do I have any idea how much local services they use. Jay
Post #203,893 by pwhysall 4/19/05 11:52:59 AM Reply	BRITAIN, DAMN IT! I LIVE IN BRITAIN, YOU INSENSITIVE COLONIAL CLODBOON! </rant> Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #203,894 by ChrisR 4/19/05 11:57:01 AM Reply	That small island off the coast of France?
Post #203,895 by ben_tilly 4/19/05 12:03:39 PM Reply	No... England is specifically the part where the angles, saxons and jutes exterminated the locals. Rather than the several pieces where they conquered the locals but let them survive. This increased generousity seems to have arrived after the English were themselves conquered by the Normans. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #203,897 by Arkadiy 4/19/05 12:04:46 PM Reply	Baboons can be trained, too Kindly explain the difference. ------ 179. I will not outsource core functions. -- [link\|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm\|.]
Post #203,908 by FuManChu 4/19/05 12:44:15 PM Reply	Britain is great.
Post #203,987 by folkert 4/20/05 8:45:51 AM Reply	But it is also a united kingdom, you know. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [image\|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg\|\|\|\|]
Post #204,010 by mmoffitt 4/20/05 9:30:34 AM Reply	If we weren't Imperialist Fascists, ... we wouldn't need an army as big as the one we have. HTH. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. God Bless America.
Post #203,804 by folkert 4/18/05 4:07:25 PM Reply	To be honest I'd pay 26% IF and ONLY IF >EVERYONE< paid it. Screw this Property tax, Sales Tax, evrything else tax... If you want a FLAT TAX, I'd gladly pay it. Well not GLADLY pay it, but you knew what I meant. And no other taxes. Period. Now, I could still complain about it Being 26%, but then so would everyone else. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [image\|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg\|\|\|\|]
Post #203,807 by ben_tilly 4/18/05 4:10:39 PM Reply	Don't bitch. I pay a LOT more than 26%. /me grumbles about state taxes. Plus I pay all of those little sales taxes etc. You get used to it. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #203,833 by folkert 4/18/05 5:09:46 PM Reply	You ferget... I have to pay both halves of my FICA for the Consluting stuff I do. Plus, since I get to pay quarterly... what fun! -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* [image\|http://www.danasoft.com/vipersig.jpg\|\|\|\|]
Post #203,806 by admin 4/18/05 4:10:36 PM Reply	Seems pretty close to what I pay now. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #203,830 by boxley 4/18/05 4:56:18 PM Reply	you are paying 33-48% now when payroll tax is included All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]

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