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New Could it be that the man is a better janitor than
product engineer (whatever that is)?

Of all the people I know wo got laid off, all found work that is as good or almost as good as the work they left behind. The two exceptions did indeed settled at a lowere level where, frankly, they actually belong. One went from middle management to sales, and one is still looking.

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179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New Except this one
who remains down 30% on personal annual income (presently even with my 1997 salary) and whose wife remains completely unemployed and is in university for retraining at great personal expense - thus adding excessive drains on the family income and making us gross 60% down on annual income.

In addition, whole regions (Denver Colorado) are pretty much barren of even crummy jobs. Why else do you suppose I'm sleeping on a boat in Puget Sound while my wife finishes her last semester in Denver?

The US economy remains fucked for the common man.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New But maybe 97 is about right for your skill set
Note: Not disparaging it, you certainly know more about most things than me, but 1997 was the start of the .com run-up. Salaries started skyrocketing at that time frame. There was a huge need for tech skills, and very few people who could handle it, and the right people who could handle a bit of uncertainty in their lives could do consulting for far above average wages.

But that was unsustainable.

Lots of people got into the field, lots of people who may or may be any good. The .com runnup tanked, even before the economy in general did. Lots of those jobs went poof, which drives the salary down for the remaining employees due to the competition.

I know I ate a 2 years of no raise and 1 pay cut, and that was at the same employer.

So my question to you, did you see a series of significant increases of income in the following years, and did they correlate with increases skill and responsibilites or was it simply a matter that market prices allowed you to charge more?

New Re: But maybe 97 is about right for your skill set
"So my question to you, did you see a series of significant increases of income in the following years, and did they correlate with increases skill and responsibilites"

Yes and yes. I'll also note that expenses are significantly higher now than in 1997 which implies that I'm doing about more like 1994 in terms of "real" money.

Also, how do you explain my wife's complete inability to find any kind of job at all (doing software QA for name firms like Autodesk and Wells Fargo)?

The economy is not "recovered". I point to the recent stockmarket nose-dive as additional evidence.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Re: But maybe 97 is about right for your skill set
> Also, how do you explain my wife's complete inability to
> find any kind of job at all (doing software QA for name
> firms like Autodesk and Wells Fargo)?

Hmm: software QA?
Everyone hates you.
The crappy programmers because you point out their mistakes that they have been hiding.
The PHBs who blame you for making the project late.
The users who want it NOW, and really don't understand now means a data damaging bug that will kill weeks of work, silently.
The good programmers love you, but since they are good programmers, you find very little problems with their stuff so there is very little interaction. Or, you find a problem in the crappy coder's code, and it is given to the good programmers to fix, incrasing their work load - so they hate you too.

That is a NASTY job. You have to be detail oriented and politically strong.

I won't try to "explain", other than to say it is the 1st job to go (along with trainers) in tough economic times. Sure, it is STUPID to get rid of the people who save your ass from making mistakes, but as we know, PHBs are short sighted to they only see them as pure expense.


> The economy is not "recovered". I point to the
> recent stockmarket nose-dive as additional evidence.

Agreed. Is has a cancerous upper level expansion at the expense of the shrinking middle class, which can't go on indefinitely. The term jobless recovery has been bandied about, and I'm partially responsible for that as I streamline our operations and automate things.
New I would also point out
that even if 1997 was the last year I was "appropriately paid", YTF haven't I gotten a raise in the last 8 fucking years?




"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New I don't know
Maybe your particular specialty peaked and then demand tanked.

Maybe you hit the top band of what is possible, and anything after that would require a huge change in job responsibilities.

I do know that tech track peaks somewhere above middle management, but not up to senior management level. So the ONLY way to get anymore money after a certain point is to move into senior management. I'm about to have my review in a bit. Doubt it will beat inflation. The only way I maintain my income is by side work / consulting.

Or maybe it is a matter of the multiple jobs. I know you've held several in several companies that have gone under. I assume in each case if you were out of work for a while you accepted a job at a lower income level.

For some reason you assume ever increasing income should be a given, and you are pissed that it is not true.

The bottom line is that it is not. Either you take 100% responsibility for your income by being an entrepreneur, which also means a strong chance of losing everything, or you take the less risky and less rewarding path of working for someone else, who in turn gets to set your salary.

And while you may say it is not less risky, the only thing you lose when the company you work for goes out of business is your job (and possibly pension). The owner might have bet a lot of savings, his house, etc, on the business.

Edit: missing "not"
Expand Edited by broomberg April 17, 2005, 10:49:14 PM EDT
New Not all companies require that transition
I know that both Apple and eBay have special internal designations for very high-level technical people. At eBay a fellow is about equivalent to a vice president. Admittedly there are fewer fellows than vice presidents. (And has freedom to do virtually anything he wants because his judgement is trusted. If he thinks it is cool and worth checking out, it likely is.)

This situation is, of course, rare.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New We do too
safety first



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis April 18, 2005, 01:31:32 PM EDT
Expand Edited by tuberculosis April 18, 2005, 01:31:37 PM EDT
New Keep in mind this is a public forum
You are crossing into dangerous territory.
New there's a reason I never mention the actual name
you'd have to go back a bit to find my one mention of it



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New bit my ass, be careful
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New When the sage Ibn Abbas (whose name is blessed among those
who know) was writing the history of the deplorable exploits of Abu Niad as they had happened in Samarkand one hundred years ago, he was suddenly notified that the Grand Visier of the Emir of his City was a descendant of the said Abu Niad. Whereupon the Sage left 10 empty pages in his book, writing "Safety First" on each. And proceeded to describe the exploits of another illustrious warrior, whose ancestors lived a comfortable distance from his City.

(my (mangled) translation of a story from "The Adventures of Hodja Nasreddin" by Soloviev (and if you see references to the movie on the internet - skip it. The book is infinitely better, especially the second part. The movie is utter crap - what can you expect from 1934?))

------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

New Transliteration of
[link|http://www.khamush.com/sufism/nasrudin.htm| Mulla Nasrudin] perhaps?
(Hakim Sanai, The Walled Garden of Truth)

The Legend of Nasrudin, appended to the Subtleties and dating from at least the thirteenth century, touches on some of the reasons for introducing Nasrudin. Humor cannot be prevented from spreading; it has a way of slipping through the patterns of thought which are imposed upon mankind by habit and design. As a complete system of thought, Nasrudin exists at so many depths that he cannot be killed. Some measure of the truth of this might be seen in the fact that such diverse and alien organizations as the British Society of the Promotion of Christian Knowledge and the Soviet Government have both pressed Nasrudin into service. The S.P.C.K. published a few of the stories as Tales of the Khoja; while (perhaps on the principle of 'If you cannot beat them, join them') the Russians made a film of Nasrudin under the name of The Adventures of Nasrudin. Even the Greeks, who accepted few other things from the Turks, consider him a part of their cultural heritage. Secular Turkey, through its information department, has published a selection o the metaphysical jokes attributed to this supposed Moslem preacher who is the archetype of the Sufi mystic. And yet the dervish Orders were suppressed by law in republican Turkey.
Sufi stories.. the most likely source for many of JC's parables -- are never very far from the mouthings of daily politico- religio- factotums of any jour. Indries Shaw has collected volumes of their 'sayings' (but plagiarizers through the ages never give attributions, we see.)

There really is nothing New under the Sun, 'The Son' (or the Sunni).
New You had it worse than many people
of your level. And yet - you finally landed a job with a company many people only dream of. I have a feeling that you're going to catch up now, very fast.

------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

     More preaching to the choir - (lincoln) - (16)
         and Atlanta HAS work - (imric)
         Could it be that the man is a better janitor than - (Arkadiy) - (14)
             Except this one - (tuberculosis) - (13)
                 But maybe 97 is about right for your skill set - (broomberg) - (12)
                     Re: But maybe 97 is about right for your skill set - (tuberculosis) - (11)
                         Re: But maybe 97 is about right for your skill set - (broomberg) - (9)
                             I would also point out - (tuberculosis) - (8)
                                 I don't know - (broomberg) - (7)
                                     Not all companies require that transition - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                         We do too - (tuberculosis) - (5)
                                             Keep in mind this is a public forum - (broomberg) - (4)
                                                 there's a reason I never mention the actual name - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                                     bit my ass, be careful -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                                                         When the sage Ibn Abbas (whose name is blessed among those - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                                             Transliteration of - (Ashton)
                         You had it worse than many people - (Arkadiy)

... and then the Earth cooled.
75 ms