Post #203,219
4/13/05 2:15:32 PM
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Yes, I'm using an alias.
I've been posting here a long time but recently this board has gotten popular at work and what follows will indicate why I don't want anyone at work to figure out who I am.
I've been recently forced into management. My first new hire was some one with a degree in C.S. from what by all accounts is a school with a decent rep for academics. He was also a CNA. New grad (~1 year), but interviewed well. It was a PC Tech position. My first clue something was amiss was when he called in on a Monday sick. No problem. Then Tuesday he didn't show up and didn't call. On Wednesday he returns and I ask him why he didn't call in on Tuesday. He says, "I'm sorry. I was sick on Monday so I guess I thought you'd know I was sick on Tuesday, too." Correct him on his behavior, then carry on. We're trying to off Netware here. He (remember he's a CNA) says, "We're not getting rid of Netware are we?" Me: "Yes, that's the plan anyway." He says, "Why?" I explain. Then he says, "Wait a minute, I thought Netware was a part of Windows 95. Cause when I took the exam it school, I used Windows 95." Then we have some vendors come in and he starts asking the vendor questions which imply he doesn't really comprehend what a network, SAN, database, etc. is. But the corker is another tech had prep'ed and tested a notebook for a VP to fly down to one of our customer's sites with. He gave the notebook to this guy and said, "Make sure he gets it before he leaves". My own boss told him the same thing. Guess what? The VP calls and says he can't get into our VPN. Some head-scratching and research resulted in us finding out that not only did the VP's notebook not get returned to him (with all the config for the VPN, utilities, presentations, etc.) BUT the new guy reformatted the VP's notebook and gave it to some one else!
There's other issues as well. Like when he asked me if he could take some of our spare parts and sell them on his eBay account and "just write the company a check."
My Q is, am I expecting too much? I mean, his PC trouble-shooting skills suck, but I realize that takes time. The other stuff indicates to me that he just can't think. And imo, you can't teach people to think. Which leaves only one alternative and I really, really, really hate to terminate anyone. But I don't see any other option in this case.
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Post #203,221
4/13/05 2:27:48 PM
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Too many details, people will figure this out
But to answer your question, he sounds like a serious liability to all around him. You're making the correct call. Make sure that when you are interviewing for a replacement, you have a tech interview as part of the process.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #203,222
4/13/05 2:31:12 PM
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did he pass a drug test?
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #203,229
4/13/05 3:02:10 PM
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Dump him and move on.
Being a boss requires the ability to be a hardass when needed.
-----------------------------------------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
-- H. L. Mencken
Support our troops, Impeach Bush.
D. D. Richards
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Post #203,234
4/13/05 3:40:33 PM
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If I did half the stuff you listed...
I'd EXPECT to be fired.
Can his ass.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the most discoveries, is not "Eureka!" but "That's funny..."
-Isaac Asimov
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Post #203,238
4/13/05 3:52:06 PM
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He doesn't fit in your organization.
It's best if he be asked to leave. It's really as simple as that. He should have learned what's expected in the position that he has. With luck, losing this position will be a wake-up call for him to get his head together.
Trying to minimize the pain for him by keeping him around isn't going to do him, or your organization any good. He needs to be somewhere else to think about what it means to work because the pain of losing a job later is much more intense.
I would only suggest keeping him around if you have some-sort of internship program where he would be heavily supervised with the strong message that he needs to shape up quickly. But if there isn't a spark somewhere that indicates that he's going to grow into the job, well I think for his sake and yours that you need to have him move on.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #203,242
4/13/05 4:00:52 PM
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Re: Yes, I'm using an alias.
My Q is, am I expecting too much? I mean, his PC trouble-shooting skills suck, but I realize that takes time. The other stuff indicates to me that he just can't think. And imo, you can't teach people to think. Which leaves only one alternative and I really, really, really hate to terminate anyone. But I don't see any other option in this case. I would consider the not calling in on the second sick day minor. It's not a big deal and what is expected in cases like that varies from company to company and boss to boss. The Ebay thing you don't give enough context to know just how bad it is. If you where talking with him about getting rid of some excess spare parts, then he is just showing a rather limited grasp of how companies work. I would question what he was thinking if it was something he suggested to you out of the blue though. The other stuff you mention is bad though. Not understanding the difference between Windows 95 and Netware means he doesn't really understand either or what networks and operating systems are. And the thing about not giving the laptop to the VP shows a complete lack of grasp of what is important or how to follow simple directions. Without knowing more information and background, I don't know if I would fire him. But given what you said, I would certainly be considering it. At the very least, you need to take him aside privately and try to talk some sense into him. Jay
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Post #203,244
4/13/05 4:18:43 PM
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the windows and netware comment
shows this person has the makings of a good implementation manager
thanx,
bill
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #203,243
4/13/05 4:06:28 PM
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He's a moron.
Bin him before he makes you look bad^H^H^Hworse.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #203,250
4/13/05 4:48:44 PM
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Fire him and working on your hiring skills
If this happens a second time, there's a common element to the problem.
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Post #203,251
4/13/05 4:52:37 PM
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I am with the consensus.
First, sick, then no call no show AND liberating Spares on EBAY?
A CNA think Win95 comes with it?
"exchanging" a Notebook for a different one... prolly less powerful too.
I am going to say, that of the all the strikes, the liberating Spares and "borrowing" the notebook isn't in very good light.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
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Post #203,252
4/13/05 4:54:47 PM
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Or you could develop a corrective action plan for him
If he doesnt meet the requirements set up in the plan within a given time frame, you make it a condition in the plan that he be let go.
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Post #203,253
4/13/05 5:02:09 PM
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It industry is ripe with these kinds of problems.
Corrective plan, doesn't do any good. They just switch to stealth mode.
Plus a Corrective action tends to make things worse not better, I have been through a few Corrective Actions... some justified, some not.
Most people that actually ask, are trying to cover for the stuff that actually disappears.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
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Post #203,256
4/13/05 5:19:29 PM
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It is best not to warn before a potential firing
People who think that they are going to be let go may say, "Well they are going to fire me anyways, what else are they going to do?" And then cause serious damage.
I'd be willing to be that not only is he not qualified for the job, but he knows that he can't do the job. Furthermore he's done things that indicate a serious lack of ethics already, so dropping below his current idea of "standards" is not where you want him to go.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #203,257
4/13/05 5:33:51 PM
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Concur, His "best" days (with you) are behind him.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #203,260
4/13/05 6:08:37 PM
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Sure, he /could/ do that.
But this guy is clearly such a bad fit (c'mon. Selling company equipment on eBay is a good idea?) that he just has to go before he causes a real problem.
Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #203,290
4/13/05 9:47:06 PM
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Lose him
Talk to your HR department. This is the MOST
important thing to do. Explain the situation,
and that your preference is separation as
fast as possible.
They need to be involved as soon as they can.
There are a lot of legal and political issues
to be dealt with, and they are trained / have
experience in that area
Then take stock of why you thought he interviewed
well. Because you WILL make this mistake again
unless you identify the hole in your process.
Not the mistake of hiring a slacker who doesn't
call in sick when he should, or an idiot who
wants to sell parts on E-Bay. This type of stuff
is probably impossible to check, unless you believe
in the personality tests.
But the mistake of hiring a CNA who thinks Netware
is part of Win95? C'mon?! This is your fault if
you tech proofed him.
I find tech interviews go far better (for me) if
someone else is asking the list of questions and
engaging in conversation. I observe and am able
to pickup the odd things and contradictions much
better that way, and ask the occasional deep dive
questions.
Some people have gotten annoyed with me, told me I
was too much of a hard ass. Far better to not let
the semi-competants through the door, than have
to fire them after they've screwed up and are about
to take you down with them.
The MOST important thing a manager does is hire
qualified people. Without that, you've got nothing to
manage!
You might want to get your boss involved for your career
training in this area. Because a couple of more people
like this, without any intervening winners, will get
YOU fired.
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Post #203,291
4/13/05 9:48:55 PM
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rubber stamp that post
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett
[link|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/]
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #203,308
4/14/05 3:23:33 AM
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Dump him
And I concur that you need to examine your hiring process to prevent it from happening again.
Our hiring process is incredibly rigorous and definitely gets us the best people most of the time.
It involves a workflow management system that hides people's input from each other until decision time. We each interview the candidate on various topics separately, then write up our impressions and vote on a scale from 1 to 4 (1 = hell yes, 2 = yes, 3 = no, 4 = hell no). It takes minimum of 2 phone interviews to get in the door for a face to face. Once in, a team of 6 people are given areas of focus and each gets an hour with the candidate (one of the hours is typically lunch - just a chat and get to know you). One interviewer is a subject expert who is focused on making sure that this person is better than at least half the people we have so far. If they are not better than average its a no-hire.
Once all impressions are written up and votes are in, a meeting is held and all votes/write ups are revealed. If one person is adamant against the person, then its no hire. Usually most people agree or abstain. Occasionally discussions ensue where we work at coming to consensus - kind of like a jury.
I realize it is resource intensive and probably not practical at a smaller company, but you should have at least 2 people interview and only hire when they agree. I have occasionally thought a candidate was a good fit and only when I heard other people's impressions did I realize that I'd overlooked something important.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #203,357
4/14/05 11:34:29 AM
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Have you seen things others didn't and they all changed?
I am very interested in this process Todd.
I really like your layout. Are you able to share any "formal things" about the whole process? I am not asking for Precious, Sensitive or Critical Data.
What I am looking for is the "Forms" that must be filled out during the process before the group chat. Not for the forms, but for the data that is important to the process.
I know this sounds like I am being lazy, I just want to compare things to the way I am going to do things pretty soon. I got a good PFY out of the testing process I use. (Though I had little choice about the "who" in the matter, this time.)
P.S. My PFY is doing Great. He is/was a pure Windows guy, not a zealot though, he hates them as much as I do (GREAT!). Never played with anything but Windows. He is now using putty and the CLI interface to do support our users. I tell the people to go ask for him to fix it, they do, he comes to me when he can't figure it out (like not knowing howto setup a vacation message for a user, versus changing their password at their request).
Most people are immunized, against knowledge transfer. My PFY is not immunized against knowledge transfer, this is good, knowledge is contagious.
*GADS* This is heaven, I absolutely enjoy imparting knowledge, through giving them enough info to figure it out, but not the answer. I'll sit and watch them. Seeing that Light turn on is an awesome sight to behold.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey[link|http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=134485&cid=11233230|"Microsoft Security" is an even better oxymoron than "Military Intelligence"] No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]
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Post #203,359
4/14/05 12:03:14 PM
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It happens
There's not much data involved - your vote and a writeup of your impressions are all you contribute. You get the guy's resume prior to the interview. The hiring manager will assign areas of coverage prior to the in-person interviews. There is a set of core qualities in a potential hire that are enumerated in policy and looked for.
It does happen that all but one will be positive on someone and the naysayer will make some points about shortcomings he spotted and others will realize that they were seeing clues to this gap at the time but did not recognize it.
I've never seen multiple negatives won over though.
I reckon I devote 2-8 hours a week to hiring, but since last September I've only participated in extending 2 offers.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #203,390
4/14/05 4:22:07 PM
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Something like that even works for a small group
In my programming group we have every potential hire pass a resume screen then a basic tech interview (do you know what % means in Perl?). Then they come in for lunch/interview with all interested programmers. This interview lasts a couple of hours. Then we all count, "1, 2, 3" and on 3 we all put thumbs out and then discuss. One thumb down is a no, there is no point discussing it. Anyone with a thumb sideways is probably a no. We happily hire on all thumbs up. It is rare for people to disagree.
Since I arrived we've hired 2 programmers. Both have worked out very well. (Usually we are not looking for anyone. Making a hire when we want one usually takes a couple of months.)
I'm not sure how much the procedure will change the next time we want to hire. But it worked for a small company.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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