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New Re: Michigan? On the convoy route?
Was browsing Wikipedia, got caught up clicking links and ended up viewing a posting from your site. So here I am. I confess, I'm not much interested in computer programming- dont have the mind for that kind of abstract thinking. But you seem to be an interesting bunch, so what the hey.
Convoy route??
-"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

"The 2 most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity."
New He's referring to BeeP bash
A member of this group has a party every 4th of July weekend.
Lives in NJ.
People from around the country (and next time, planet) show up for it.
A convoy passes through your state.
New Re: He's referring to BeeP bash
Well then, honk as you pass by and I'll wave.
-"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

"The 2 most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity."
New That's a curious thing to say
How do you figure abstract thinking has much to do with computer programming? I'd venture a guess that 90% of the programming done today is more a trade than art or science, much less abstract theory.

Maybe the people writing programming languages are doing abstract thinking, but for the great bulk of us using the programming languages, it's just using the tools to solve a problem. Granted, some use the tools better than others.

Don't read this as a criticism, I'm just genuinely surprised to hear someone describe what I do so differently from how I see it.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Re: That's a curious thing to say
No offense taken. I guess I was thinking of the people writing the programs. You guys work with things that arent tangible- you cant hold or touch it. To me, that's abstract.
-"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

"The 2 most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity."
New Probably means that we don't do actual (real) work. :-)
New That's sad Drook
99% of what I do is sit here and think.
I think about what I'm trying to accomplish.
I think about the "grunt" way of doing it.
Then I think how to extract out the common cases.
Then I think how to table drive.
Then I think how to keep the tables out of the code.
Then I think of how the end user will modify the tables.
Then I think how the code will interpret the tables.

I'll determine what new ways I'm about to code, as compared to any code I've done in the past, and I'll whip up small test cases to make sure it will behave the way I think it should.

Then I'll think about the exceptions, and determine what I consider errors in the tables that drive the code, and any boundary conditions that I will "correct" in the code.

And then finally, I'll code.

And that coding time is far less than the previous steps.

I agree with Bionerd.
New I said 90% didn't I?
Do you really think you are the typical programmer? By that I mean people making their living primarily writing code. Do you think what you do is really representative of most of them?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New It is representative of most of the good ones
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Woudln't that depend on the job?
I'm sure I've mentioned before that most of what my department does is create a new form, process the input, put the results in a database, and write reports against the data. We're just automating the paperwork.

The only place performance tends to be an issue is in reporting. There, a bad query can mean the difference between two minutes to run and 2 hours to run. But even then, we "solve" the problem by installing another slave DB server and run all reports against that. It doesn't require interactive response times, and doesn't affect performance of the master DB server.

We're still early on the exponential curve, but we're still able to double our reporting capacity by throwing hardware at it for less than the cost of an entry-level programmer. We could double again twice before paying for a real DBA.

Given that, what is our company's justification for hiring people who are really good, and paying what they're worth? (Note the sound of heads bumping against the glass ceiling of what "we" are willing to pay for programmers.)
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Not that often
I'd guess that in development you wind up doing a lot of repetitive work as you literally translate forms over. I'd guess that someone good would have found ways to cut out steps so that adding more pages would go faster.

Speaking of cutting out steps, good people would find ways to eliminate steps for the users, spotting more opportunities for automation. Or they might come up with useful little tools to make people's lives easier. You'd be amazed what good a creative developer can do for an organization by solving problems that they hadn't known that they had.

Conversely a bad developer creates work for everyone else around. I'm sure that you've encountered the breed.

And a second concern with reporting is what fields mean. Typically people wind up with these complex sets of fields, and complex reports against them, but the data in the database doesn't really mean what people think they do, and the reports aren't quite what people think they are. When people act on these reports, there is a risk that they don't think about there.

And a third question. How confident are you that all of your queries actually say what you think that they say? A small mistake in a query might not just make it take 2 hours instead of 2 minutes. It might make you do an extra outer join, doubling multiplying the numbers by a random factor. Have you thought about how to detect this, and would you notice?

But you're right. With how some organizations work, they make it hard for quality people to make a difference. At some point good developers have to choose to be in an environment that enables them to perform to snuff.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Getting a little uppity there, aren't you?
You'd be amazed what good a creative developer can do for an organization by solving problems that they hadn't known that they had.
What do you think, you're a business analyst now? Get back to impementing the request that's been handed down to you and let the people who understand (the) business worry about what the users need.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New See what I said about "some organizations"
I'm lucky enough to work in one that doesn't get in my way.

Here's how it works out.

From time to time I need a break from what I'm doing. So I take one. In those breaks I'm likely to talk to other people. Sometimes they are doing something that I know could be done better.

If I feel like it and I think that I could improve their lives in under an hour, sometimes I'll just do it. Good for morale, leaves me feeling happy, and the extra energy it leaves me generally makes up for the time spent. If I'm not feeling quite that inspired, or it is bigger, I'll tell them, "You know, it would be easier if we just had a tool to do X. It would take me about Y effort to do. I'd suggest talking to Z, tell them my estimate, and have them prioritize that project and get it in the queue."

I don't do this that often, but often enough that it makes a difference. Sometimes a big one.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New tiger teams, had the fortune to work on one once
given the resposability set to do A then as long as A was covered we could screw around with B,C to Z. A never got boring, a lot of pieces of the org got helped by our "submarine projects" and no one ever questioned what we were up to. Unfortunately most orgs dont recognise the value such teams ad and as soon as a merkin borg politikal CFO was merged into the company he quickly fscked the idea.
regards,
daemon
I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice.
George Macdonald Frasier
Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
New Same thing where I work.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New That's actually my "non-break" job
I'm responsible to discover where IS/IT can make people's jobs easier before the people themselves figure it out. Not quite Management By Walking Around, but close--more Watching People Work.
New Programming is working with abstractions.
Even simple programming. People who can't handle abstractions not only can't program, they're incapable of understanding a directory structure, and you'd be shocked how many people that is. Those who can handle abstractions just don't realize what it is they're doing because they're just doing it.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Okay, at that level I see what you mean
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Excuse me
Just have to do this.

"How do you figure abstract thinking has much to do with computer programming?"

SLAP



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Since my explanation in the thread didn't clear this up ...
I suspect most of the people making a living as programmers today could be described as "digital carpenters." That's not a criticism. Good carpenters deserve the high salarys they get. They produce some beautiful work that most of us could never imagine doing. But they're not usually inventing anything new.

Take someone making one-off furniture. Each one is different from the rest. Some pieces can go for tens of thousands of dallars. Some are even considered art. But in the end, you can be fairly unoriginal but highly skilled with the tools of the trade and still make very good money.

You (Todd) are working someplace creating new things. You are (I believe) the exception. Why is it an insult to suggest that other people with a similar job description aren't doing anything really creative or abstract?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Because creative \\= abstract
Or should I have used the "!" token to mean not instead? Wouldn't want to offend the Common Use Computer Language ghods.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Programmers, eh?
They're a funny lot, programmers.

Personally, I wouldn't trust a programmer with hardware as far as I could comfortably spit a live, wriggling rhino.


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Where's my soldering iron?
I can fix those cable thingies easy!
New Which cable, the power or the ribbon?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New All of 'em at once.
Shorting them together helps speed up the processing.
New Quit before the magic smoke comes out though. Can be tricky.
New Networking engineering requires a good sense of smell.
New ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #193348 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=193348|ICLRPD]
New Hey! That's my specialty!
However I specialize in electric welding. Leaving the power switch on is always amusing.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Have you ever blown an inch-wide hole out of a power supply?
New Have you ever shorted across the 220 supply with an ohmeter?
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Nope.
Closest I came was screwing up the contacts between the old-style AT case powerswitches - killed power to the entire stripmall I was in, and blew a huge chunk out of the power supply.
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
New I helped blow out half of downtown Palm Springs once
Marine band was playing. We plugged too much of the sound system into one circuit. Oops.

The 220 I shorted was while trying to troubleshoot a dryer that wasn't working. Was testing from the supply to the thermostat and accidentally touched both hot ends of the supply with one probe. The probe was cut in half, leaving about a half-inch of the tip welded to the leads.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Funniest one here . . .
. . Trudy, a sometimes assistant back in the 486 days, was accustomed to seeing me finish assembly of PCs while they were running - so did the same on one. While putting mounting screws into a floppy drive she didn't notice the screwdriver passed very close to the contacts of the on-off switch.

KAPOW!! Blew a big notch in the screwdriver, the motherboard fried, the main chip on the video card exploded into fragments, the cpu chip burst and the monitor billowed smoke. Only the disk drives and memory survived.

Now this stuff was expensive back then, but I think the expression on Trudy's face was worth every penny as was future use of the phrase "It's been Trudyized".
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Do we know Trudy under another name?
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New No.
Rose is extremely cautious around hardware, and while she can work with it she rarely does.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New I'm no programmer either
Hobbyist, yes. Programmer no.

I'm in procurement
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Weren't you working on changing that state of affairs?
New Was thinking about it.
Career change has taken away all my spare time.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Don't you need abstract thinking in biology?
--


- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

New Re: Don't you need abstract thinking in biology?
Of course, but not to the degree that you need it for programming or say, physics. Bio is more hands-on.
-"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

"The 2 most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity."
New So, can you tell us about your typical time at work?
The way broomberg told us about his in the thread above?

I always thought that scientists are paid to think all day, even more so than programmers.
--


- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

New I thought...
...bioscience was all shite and yoghurt.

:-P


Peter
[link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
New Don't forget the biscuits
[link|http://www.soylent-green.com/|Soylent Green Biscuit Company]
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Do you really want to hear about this?
Most research in the field these days focuses on embryonic development at the cellular level. Simply put, I specialize in how environmental factors impact embyrogenisis. Currently I'm working on a project related to tetragenesis in mouse embryos after exposure to testosterone of unfamiliar males. Spend my days staging embryos and preparing slides. Grunt work.
-"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

New Suggestion
Forget the lab setting. Go hang out at frat parties. You'll learn all you need to know about exposure to testosterone of unfamiliar males.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Been there, done that
I'm more selective about my testosterone exposure these days.
-"I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers."

New I don't imagine she got where she is...
without some experience observing that class of subject.
~~~)-Steven----

"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."

General George S. Patton
     Newbie - (bionerd) - (94)
         Welcome. - (pwhysall)
         Michigan? On the convoy route? - (drewk) - (48)
             Re: Michigan? On the convoy route? - (bionerd) - (47)
                 He's referring to BeeP bash - (broomberg) - (1)
                     Re: He's referring to BeeP bash - (bionerd)
                 That's a curious thing to say - (drewk) - (17)
                     Re: That's a curious thing to say - (bionerd)
                     Probably means that we don't do actual (real) work. :-) -NT - (ChrisR)
                     That's sad Drook - (broomberg) - (9)
                         I said 90% didn't I? - (drewk) - (8)
                             It is representative of most of the good ones -NT - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                                 Woudln't that depend on the job? - (drewk) - (6)
                                     Not that often - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                                         Getting a little uppity there, aren't you? - (drewk) - (4)
                                             See what I said about "some organizations" - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                 tiger teams, had the fortune to work on one once - (daemon)
                                                 Same thing where I work. -NT - (admin)
                                                 That's actually my "non-break" job - (FuManChu)
                     Programming is working with abstractions. - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                         Okay, at that level I see what you mean -NT - (drewk)
                     Excuse me - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                         Since my explanation in the thread didn't clear this up ... - (drewk) - (1)
                             Because creative \\= abstract - (jake123)
                 Programmers, eh? - (pwhysall) - (14)
                     Where's my soldering iron? - (ChrisR) - (13)
                         Which cable, the power or the ribbon? -NT - (drewk) - (12)
                             All of 'em at once. - (ChrisR) - (11)
                                 Quit before the magic smoke comes out though. Can be tricky. -NT - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                     Networking engineering requires a good sense of smell. -NT - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                         ICLRPD (new thread) - (FuManChu)
                                 Hey! That's my specialty! - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                                     Have you ever blown an inch-wide hole out of a power supply? -NT - (inthane-chan) - (6)
                                         Have you ever shorted across the 220 supply with an ohmeter? -NT - (drewk) - (5)
                                             Nope. - (inthane-chan) - (4)
                                                 I helped blow out half of downtown Palm Springs once - (drewk) - (3)
                                                     Funniest one here . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                                                         Do we know Trudy under another name? -NT - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                             No. - (Andrew Grygus)
                 I'm no programmer either - (bepatient) - (2)
                     Weren't you working on changing that state of affairs? -NT - (FuManChu) - (1)
                         Was thinking about it. - (bepatient)
                 Don't you need abstract thinking in biology? -NT - (Arkadiy) - (8)
                     Re: Don't you need abstract thinking in biology? - (bionerd) - (7)
                         So, can you tell us about your typical time at work? - (Arkadiy) - (6)
                             I thought... - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                 Don't forget the biscuits - (drewk)
                             Do you really want to hear about this? - (bionerd) - (3)
                                 Suggestion - (drewk) - (2)
                                     Been there, done that - (bionerd)
                                     I don't imagine she got where she is... - (Steven A S)
         Welcome - (broomberg) - (25)
             Re: Welcome - (bionerd) - (24)
                 He has past cause... - (ben_tilly) - (23)
                     No I'm not him...I'm a her - (bionerd) - (21)
                         Cool, there is a slight imbalance in these parts.. -NT - (ben_tilly)
                         Men are parasites ;-) - (ben_tilly) - (19)
                             Re: Men are parasites ;-) - (bionerd) - (18)
                                 Why expend more energy? To get more kids. - (ben_tilly) - (17)
                                     A couple of reasons. - (Andrew Grygus) - (15)
                                         Second point is pretty much pure circular reasoning, AFAICS. - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                             We are not talking 'fair' here, we're talking 'survival'. - (Andrew Grygus)
                                             Nature is not PC - (ben_tilly)
                                         Let me address those reasons for strict sexuality - (ben_tilly) - (11)
                                             well if I were a hermaphrodyte I would never leave the house - (daemon) - (10)
                                                 Don't confuse "hermaphroditic" with "flexible"... -NT - (admin)
                                                 It works for nematodes - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                     Y'all take all the mystery out of procreation - (ChrisR) - (6)
                                                         Out drinking? Reading Jung? Casting a horoscope? -NT - (ben_tilly)
                                                         OT: Where TH is Ross anyway? -NT - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                                                             Re: OT: Where TH is Ross anyway? - (Yendor) - (1)
                                                                 Ah. Thanks. Missed that. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                             Atlanta, IIRC. ... Oh, you mean. Well, he ran away. :-( -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                         I agree - (Nightowl)
                                                     dont have to try, they fight real well (bull sealions) - (daemon)
                                     Exactly -NT - (bionerd)
                     Re: He has past cause... - (Nightowl)
         Hoy - (admin) - (4)
             Ann Arbor- Heck , no! - (bionerd) - (3)
                 My sister went there for a few years. - (admin) - (1)
                     Cow Tipping- - (bionerd)
                 Moo U - (tuberculosis)
         Use Debian - (lincoln)
         welcome, another expert to opine with :-) -NT - (daemon)
         With a handle like "bionerd"... - (FuManChu) - (7)
             My score - (bionerd) - (6)
                 Meh, amateur... - (admin) - (4)
                     Wait until you know me better before calling me an amateur - (bionerd) - (3)
                         Amateur. Raw, rank, unadulterated. - (admin) - (2)
                             Nerd God - (bionerd) - (1)
                                 Yes. -NT - (admin)
                 Your Overlord speaks: - (folkert)
         welcome to the party -NT - (cforde)
         Welcome from another non-IT - (Ashton)
         Welcome! - (jb4)

We're... the Three Amigos!
155 ms