Post #192,039
1/27/05 9:25:27 PM
1/27/05 10:01:09 PM
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New article questions Shroud of Turin age test.
[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/27/science/27shroud.html?oref=login|NYTimes]: The Shroud of Turin is much older than the medieval date that modern science has affixed to it and could be old enough to have been the burial wrapping of Jesus, a new analysis concludes.
Since 1988, most scientists have confidently concluded that it was the work of a medieval artist, because carbon dating had placed the production of the fabric between 1260 and 1390.
In an article this month in the journal Thermochimica Acta, Dr. Raymond N. Rogers, a chemist retired from Los Alamos National Laboratory, said the carbon dating test was valid but that the piece tested was about the size of a postage stamp and came from a portion that had been patched. [link|http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6THV-4DTBVHC-1-1&_cdi=5292&_user=10&_orig=browse&_coverDate=01%2F20%2F2005&_sk=995749998&view=c&wchp=dGLbVlb-zSkWW&md5=e90c84cf430934f391e8b0c11f53a768&ie=/sdarticle.pdf|Here] is the paper (.pdf). I'm uncomfortable with Rogers' arguments. He mentions the STURP program that analyzed the shroud earlier. I recall reading a book about their results years ago - they argued then that it was not possible to prove that it was a forgery and that it likely wasn't. It had a very pro-authenticity slant to the presentation. He seems to be recycling some of their arguements. It seems to me that great care would be taken in choosing a representative sample of the shroud for the most recent tests. Perhaps he's right that the sample is not representative. I don't know. But I think the preponderance of the evidence is that it is from the middle ages. [link|http://www.freeinquiry.com/skeptic/shroud/|This] site has links to pro- and anti-authenticity sites, including STURP. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #192,043
1/27/05 10:01:17 PM
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does it really matter how old it tests out to be?
If it was done in the middle ages its a miracle anyway becuase it hasnt been explained HOW it was done. regards, daemon
I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice. George Macdonald Frasier Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #192,051
1/27/05 10:43:21 PM
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To some, it does.
It's not universally claimed to be the burial shroud of Jesus. The Catholic Church does not claim that it is. Some other churches do. Why does it matter? Well, as a recent post/article (here?) pointed out, many Christians don't believe in Christ because of their faith (~ belief in things that can't be proven), but rather because they feel they have evidence to point to the truth of their belief. They've talked with God or seen miracles, etc., personally. When the shroud was seemingly conclusively shown to be from the Middle Ages, the belief of some must have been shaken. If it were shown to be from ~ 30 AD, many people would take it to be evidence of the truth of the Gospels. How was it formed? Well, I think people have a pretty good [link|http://www.freeinquiry.com/skeptic/shroud/as/schafersman.html|idea]. (It's a bit strident.): [...] I also want to comment briefly on a number of other topics concerning the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin. First, Walter McCrone [16] found artist's red ochre (iron oxide) pigment particles covering the image area and both red ochre and vermilion (mercuric sulfide) pigment particles in the blood areas, but none of these particles on tape samples from the off-image areas. This evidence was sufficient for any objective and rational person to accept the fact that the Shroud was an artistic representation of the Shroud, and not the real thing. But McCrone was illogically and unjustifiably criticized by STURP participants and other advocates of authenticity, who then and now attempt to clumsily explain away the plain and obvious evidence of artifice that he first discovered. Walter McCrone recently summarized his results again in this journal [17], so I will not repeat them again.
[...]
Such explanations are pseudoscientific attempts to keep the possibility of authenticity alive in the minds of supporters who lack the ability to think critically. There is no blood on the Shroud: all the forensic tests specific for blood have failed [18] (although some investigators [19] unrigorously concluded that blood was present after conducting numerous forensic tests for iron, protein, albumin, etc., which came up positive because these materials are indeed on the Shroud in the form of tempera paint). Old blood is not bright red, and no amount of bilirubin [20] can explain that away. Real blood mats on hair, and does not form perfect rivulets and spiral flows. Real blood does not contain red ochre, vermilion, and alizarin red pigments. Real blood and its organic derivatives have refractive indices much less than red ochre or vermilion, and they can be easily distinguished using Becke line movement under a light microscope. McCrone's examination of the red particles on the Shroud samples revealed no blood or blood derivatives. Schafersman even addresses (in 1998) Rogers' 2004 arguement that samples were taken from the wrong bit of the shroud: The Shroud's Medieval Radiocarbon Date
Without question, the most spectacular refutation of the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin was the determination that the linen on which the image lies dates from approximately 1325. The Shroud was sampled and the dates determined by the most scrupulous and scientifically-valid techniques and procedures that are possible. Sampling was carefully conducted and witnessed, the samples were properly cleaned and prepared, and three different laboratories performed the 14C dating using blind control samples in addition to the Shroud samples. All the dates were consistent among the labs. Since Robert E. M. Hedges has reviewed the radiometric dating analyses and results in this journal[24], I need not repeat them here. I merely want to state that the quality of the radiometric data are so rigorous that no objective, rational person can reasonably deny them.
Naturally, believers in the Shroud's authenticity have thrown up numerous criticisms that are variously ludicrous, vacuous, and without merit. Contrary to pro-authenticity advocates, the linen samples were not deceptively switched, not taken from the wrong part of the Shroud material, not improperly cleaned and prepared, did not have a bioplastic coating, were not contaminated by modern bacteria and fungi that were not removed, the carbon-14 content of the cloth was not altered by the fire of 1532, the final results were not deliberately falsified by a conspiracy of anti-religious scientists, and so forth. As has been pointed out by others, modern material of approximately twice the mass as the Shroud samples would have to be added to the samples to bring authentic first-century linen up to radiocarbon dates of the fourteenth-century, and this would have been just too obvious to go unnoticed by so many independent investigators. Once again, the ad hoc excuses, criticisms, and counter-arguments of the radiocarbon dating by Shroud enthusiasts were put forward to preserve appearances at any cost, a classic characteristic of pseudoscience. In real science, legitimate and reliable data that falsify one's most treasured hypotheses and beliefs are accepted, and lead one to abandon one's former beliefs. But sindonology is a pseudoscience, not real science. I think the preponderance of the evidence points to it being made in Europe in the Middle Ages. I think the shroud is interesting for 2 reasons: 1) it's an interesting scientific puzzle; 2) it's an interesting experiment in mass psychology. I think it's yet another example of "Where you stand depends on where you sit." I.e. it's very difficult for people to overcome their biases, their upbringing, what they learn from their circle of friends. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #192,136
1/28/05 5:34:35 PM
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Re: does it really matter how old it tests out to be?
a fluent speaker of boxlish avers If it was done in the middle ages its a miracle anyway becuase it hasnt been explained HOW it was done. Isn't that setting the bar for miracles rather low? Was sunlight miraculous up until the principles of stellar nuclear fusion were understood, ceasing thereafter to partake of the supernatural? To assert that a phenomenon has merely to be inexplicable (or rather "unexplained"—I suspect that much will ultimately yield to sustained study should technological society endure that long) to be "a miracle" seems to me to cheapen the term to approximately the level of the adman's "washday miracle" ("New enzyme action gets even the toughest stains out of your shroud so you can Turin the other cheek with confidence!"). I don't think Christers ought to throw the term around unless they are talking about a significant intervention by the notional Big Guy to alter the normal operations of, say, biology or orbital mechanics, and once they do I say "bring it on!" They have a way, purported miracles do, of dissolving under scrutiny. cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #192,163
1/28/05 8:27:37 PM
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And this is all beside the point
As is noted in the article that Another Scott pointed to, we know how it was created. There is no mystery.
All significant features and misfeatures of the shroud can be explained by creating it with a rubbing technique on a bas relief model. It is a well-known technique, and most of us have used a variation to create a drawing of a coin or of bark using paper and pencil. This technique explains the 3-dimensionality, the realism, the vertical distortions in the image, etc.
So we have here a dated artifact, produced using known pigments, using a known artistic technique during a time when many, many fake religious artifacts were produced. There is no evidence of authenticity. It does not have blood on it. Etc, etc, etc.
At this point the only mystery about the Shroud is why so many people (apparently including boxley) continue to believe that there is actually something special about it! The only explanation that makes sense to me is willful ignorance (willful because it takes very little effort to become educated on the topic), and so it is more properly a question of psychology at this time than science.
Regards, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #192,170
1/28/05 10:34:24 PM
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And furthermore, I recall reading . . .
. . that someone at the time actually confessed to having made it, but by then nobody was interested in hearing that.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #192,171
1/28/05 10:55:17 PM
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A couple of linkies.
[link|http://www.csicop.org/articles/shroud/index2.html|CSICOP]: Historically, the Shroud of Turin is one of some forty reputed burial cloths of Jesus, although it is the only one to bear the apparent imprints and bloodstains of a crucified man. Religious critics have long noted that the Turin shroud is incompatible with the bible, which describes multiple burial wrappings, including a separate \ufffdnapkin\ufffd that covered Jesus\ufffd face (John 20:5\ufffd7).
The Turin cloth first appeared in north-central France in the mid-fourteenth century. At that time the local bishop uncovered an artist who confessed he had \ufffdcunningly painted\ufffd the image. Subsequently, in 1389, Pope Clement VII officially declared the shroud to be only a painted \ufffdrepresentation.\ufffd
Years later, this finding was conveniently forgotten by the granddaughter of the original owner. She sold it to the House of Savoy, which later became the Italian monarchy. Eventually the cloth was transferred to Turin. In 1983 Italy\ufffds exiled king died, bequeathing the shroud to the Vatican. [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin|Wikipedia]: Forceful arguments and evidence cited against the miraculous origin of the shroud images include a letter from a medieval bishop to the Avignon pope claiming personal knowledge that the image was cleverly painted to gain money from pilgrims, ...
[...]
In 1389 the image was denounced as a fraud by Bishop Pierre D'Arcis in a letter to the Avignon pope, mentioning that the image had previously been denounced by his predecessor Henri de Poitiers, who had been concerned that no such image was mentioned in scripture. Bishop D'Arcis continued, "Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination, he discovered how the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it, to wit, that it was a work of human skill and not miraculously wrought or bestowed." (In German: [[link|http://www.huinfo.at/grabtuch/grabtuch.htm#_Toc499394755|4]]).) The artist is not named in the letter. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #192,178
1/28/05 11:59:51 PM
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not the sorta how you mention
from what I have seen of it, it looks burned in. Paint is a chemical mixture of various things but I havnt heard of it being reproduced in a lab. Now it has been reproduced in hiroshima and nagasaki, shadows faces burned into stone etc. regards, daemon
I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice. George Macdonald Frasier Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #192,187
1/29/05 1:28:06 AM
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Um, actually it has been reproduced in the lab
It is a combination of red ochre and vermilion tempera paint. Both in common use at that time.
Cheers, Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #192,181
1/29/05 12:10:27 AM
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I say
Iphigenia / Aulis Turin the other cheek - Ima Pisa ona you
(Genoa.. One Good Turandot's alotta Morose Code .. in D# ?)
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