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New It can't happen here?
[link|http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/01/26/oh_yes_it_can_happen_here/|http://www.boston.co..._can_happen_here/]

"How did you go bankrupt?"
"Two Ways. Gradually, and then suddenly."
Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises

COUNTRIES GO broke gradually, by borrowing so much money that creditors lose confidence in their ability to pay the debt back. Then, they go broke suddenly as creditors stop lending.
...
Yesterday, the bipartisan Congressional Budget Office, possibly the last intellectually honest government agency in George Bush's Washington, reported that our fiscal situation is even worse than expected.

According to the CBO's latest ''Budget and Economic Outlook," the projected deficit for 2005 will be about $400 billion. The CBO declares, politely but unmistakably, that it doesn't buy the Bush administration's budgetary gimmickry of trying to keep anticipated military outlays out of the official budget.

''The absence of further appropriations for activities in Iraq and Afghanistan," CBO states, ''masks a further deterioration in budget projections over the [next] ten years."

Specifically, the deficit for the next decade is $504 billion worse than anticipated in CBO's previous estimate last September.

The agency goes on to warn that other challenges not currently itemized in official administration projections, such as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, will only increase future deficits. And, of course, if the Bush administration succeeds either in making permanent his major tax reductions (most of which sunset after 10 years), or in adding $2 trillion of borrowing to privatize Social Security, the fiscal situation would go from merely disastrous to catastrophic.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New Hey, Arkadiy, remember the old definition of Capitalism?
It's beginning to fit...
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New Which one?
--


- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

New A socio-economic system in the last stages of decay.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New That's not a definition
That's Lenin's cursing.

I did try to read "Imperialism as highest and final stage of Capitalism". I just can't stomach all the swearing, not backed up by any logic.
--


- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

New No Logic????
What's illogical about this?

The enormous growth of industry and the remarkably rapid concentration of production in ever-larger enterprises are one of the most characteristic features of capitalism. Modern production censuses give most complete and most exact data on this process.

In Germany, for example, out of every 1,000 industrial enterprises, large enterprises, i.e., those employing more than 50 workers, numbered three in 1882, six in 1895 and nine in 1907; and out of every 100 workers employed, this group of enterprises employed. 22, 30 and 37, respectively. Concentration of production, however, is much more intense than the concentration of workers, since labour in the large enterprises is much more productive. This is shown by the figures on steam-engines and electric motors. If we take what in Germany is called industry in the broad sense of the term, that is, including commerce, transport, etc., we get the following picture. Large-scale enterprises, 30,588 out of a total of 3,265,623, that is to say, 0.9 per cent. These enterprises employ 5,700,000 workers out of a total of 14,400,000, i.e., 39.4 per cent; they use 6,600,000 steam horse power out of a total of 8,800,000, i.e., 75.3 per cent, and 1,200,000 kilowatts of electricity out of a total of 1,500,000, i.e., 77.2 per cent.

Less than one-hundredth of the total number of enterprises utilise more than three-fourths of the total amount of steam and electric power! Two million nine hundred and seventy thousand small enterprises (employing up to five workers), constituting 91 per cent of the total, utilise only 7 per cent of the total amount of steam and electric power! Tens of thousands of huge enterprises are everything; millions of small ones are nothing.

In 1907, there were in Germany 586 establishments employing one thousand and more workers, nearly one-tenth (1,380,000) of the total number of workers employed in industry, and they consumed almost one-third (32 per cent) of the total amount of steam and electric power. [1] As we shall see, money capital and the banks make this superiority of a handful of the largest enterprises still more overwhelming, in the most literal sense of the word, i.e., millions of small, medium and even some big "proprietors" are in fact in complete subjection to some hundreds of millionaire financiers.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New No logic.
The quote is entirely about data. Not a single conclusion drawn. If the logic is there, it's somewhere else. Try another quote.
--


- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

New His claim is the first sentence.
Backed up by the following sentences.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New It's not a claim
It's an "executive summary" that data later confirms.

His actual "claim" was that the growth of technology and the success of larger size enterprises gives rise to stronger tendency toward monopoly. And monopoly, in turn, accomplishes two things: it makes capitalism even less efficient, and it prepares the time when the proletariat's state will take the ripe monopoly over and the good times will begin.

This is how we were taught. I could not find that logic in the book itself. Like I said, it was mostly cursing, when a proof was needed.
--


- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

New As Bush's Treasury Secretary John Snow once said,
"Just wait."
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New That isn't logic
That is a theory stated as fact, and then numbers provided that happen to fit the theory.

There is no consideration of alternate theories that might explain those numbers and no attempt to provide an explanation of why capitalism should look like this. For instance I'd like to see his theory of how you could apply the techniques of the Industrial Revolution outside of a large organization. It is certain that the Soviet Union never succeeded.

Furthermore the theory is wrong, albeit for reasons that were only figured out long after Lenin wrote. Starting in the 1930s, economists (starting with Ronald Coase) developed a theory of why firms are the size that they are. Firms walk the line between the inefficiencies of communicating information by market mechanisms and organizing a centralized bureaucracy. Their size is set by which costs more at the current time for what they do. While it is true that large companies have economies of scale, small ones are more likely to notice and react to new opportunities.

You can find somewhat more detail on this theory at [link|http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/coase.htm|http://www2.sjsu.edu...watkins/coase.htm].

In fact, as was noted in The Innovator's Solution (which I read recently), there is a tendancy that, when a market is created, it consolidates around a handful (frequently 1) of major companies. But as the market matures, it almost looks like it goes through some kind of dicing machine because the market naturally tends to divide into submarkets along lines corresponding to the functional subsystems, which themselves repeat the process. And so what was one company becomes many.

Of course when Lenin wrote, his recent economic history was the Industrial Revolution, which was an immense concentration of wealth and companies. Since then we've had more time to observe how businesses grow, shrink, and generally evolve. Certainly the natural progression that Lenin postulated towards a single monopoly hasn't played out. For every monopoly created, another has faded. And somehow there remain opportunities for small businesses to exploit which the big fish can't seem to get a piece of.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New It certainly is a logical argument.
Although not in a modus ponens form, he did use the (indisputable?) facts at hand to form a logical conclusion: that the hallmark of capitalism is "rapid concentration of production in ever-larger enterprises."

Are you actually suggesting that we do not have ample evidence of this today? If your theory is correct, it should be that there are more companies/competition now than there were before in nearly every sector. (Looked at the computing industry lately? How about the discount retail chains? Airlines? Newspapers? Broadcast media? Petroleum? Anything?)

Certainly the natural progression that Lenin postulated towards a single monopoly hasn't played out.

Nice hand-wave there. Has capitalism fully matured yet? Hardly. There are so many new worlds to conquer (Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Russia's on its way but still has far more to exploit, etc.). And surely you agree that at least the goal of every enterprise is to become Lenin's single monopoly, yes? (Think MSFT for example here)

With the evidence at hand, I'd vastly prefer defending Lenin's theory to yours.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New Re: It certainly is a logical argument.
Let me remind you about something that happened at or before the time of Lenin's "logical" conclusion:
1890, first measure passed by the U.S. Congress to prohibit trusts; it was named for Senator John Sherman . Prior to its enactment, various states had passed similar laws, but they were limited to intrastate businesses. Finally opposition to the concentration of economic power in large corporations and in combinations of business concerns led Congress to pass the Sherman Act. The act, based on the constitutional power of Congress to regulate interstate commerce, declared illegal every contract, combination (in the form of trust or otherwise), or conspiracy in restraint of interstate and foreign trade. A fine of $5,000 and imprisonment for one year were set as the maximum penalties for violating the act. The Sherman Act authorized the federal government to institute proceedings against trusts in order to dissolve them, but Supreme Court rulings prevented federal authorities from using the act for some years. As a result of President Theodore Roosevelt's \ufffdtrust-busting\ufffd campaigns, the Sherman Act began to be invoked with some success, and in 1904 the Supreme Court upheld the government in its suit for dissolution of the Northern Securities Company. The act was further employed by President Taft in 1911 against the Standard Oil trust and the American Tobacco Company.
New Heh.
You talking about the law that worked so effectively against Microsoft?
</me falls over>
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New perfect example, the beast is decaying
from within and without. So your centric vision only holds as far as the ingathering part of the lifespan of an economic entity but doesnt wait long enough for the slow death and dismemberment portion.
regards,
daemon
I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice.
George Macdonald Frasier
Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
New Last I looked, it's market share hadn't diminished much.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New Re: Last I looked, it's market share hadn't diminished much.
Look at Apple and Red Hat. They're doing well too.
The law is working. Just not as fast as many people wish :)
New They just reported best quarter ever
Double the profits. Look at the share price. The market knows something...
--


- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

New Ah yes, the vaunted market knows all.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New But they've stopped growing
And their attempts to enter new markets have been stalling at great expense. (See the X Box.) Plus their competitors in several markets are on a growth trajectory (Linux, Apple, Firefox...).

None of this bodes well for their future.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New OMG! They "stopped growing" at 97% market share. Go figure.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New As pointed out already, no company has come close to that
As a sample, last quarter Microsoft reported revenue of a bit over $9 billion. If they did that for the whole quarter, their total revenue might be $36 billion. Against a US GDP of 10 trillion. That isn't even a fraction of a percent of the US economy.

Of course Microsoft is more notable for profits than revenue. Let's go with a bigger company. You don't get bigger than General Electric, with the largest market cap in the world. They have also been around for a long time - they are the only member of the original DOW to still be listed in the DOW. How has their quest for world domination gone?

2004 was a good year for them. Their revenues were $152.2 billion, up from $134.2 billion the year before. That's under 2% of our GNP. But they are a worldwide company - I don't know what fraction of that income was US based. However even so, if after a century the most successful capitalist company in history can't manage to get to 2% of our GNP, then the dreaded future of a single monopoly that owns everything is going to be a looong way off.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New FYI, here's some of the evidence for my view
Although not in a modus ponens form, he did use the (indisputable?) facts at hand to form a logical conclusion: that the hallmark of capitalism is "rapid concentration of production in ever-larger enterprises."

No, he did not. He made an assertion and provided figures that seemed to support it. He didn't consider other possibilities. He didn't provide additional predictions of his theory. He didn't even think of suggesting a mechanism by which his prediction would play out. In short he didn't do any of the things which are part of an honest attempt to analyze whether his ideas are actually right or merely suggestive.
Are you actually suggesting that we do not have ample evidence of this today? If your theory is correct, it should be that there are more companies/competition now than there were before in nearly every sector. (Looked at the computing industry lately? How about the discount retail chains? Airlines? Newspapers? Broadcast media? Petroleum? Anything?)

First of all it isn't my theory, it is Ronald Coase's theory. It incidentally has been put through a lot more tests than Lenin's rants.

Secondly you obviously didn't read it to understand what it said, you just saw that I disagreed with Lenin and assumed that that means that I'm saying the opposite of what he said. (Thereby demonstrating your own abilities at logical thought...) What the theory actually implies is that the size of companies should fluctuate through time depending on what the relative transaction costs are. As the transaction costs are, at least in principle, measurable, this is a testable theory.

Thirdly let's look at the examples that you gave:

  1. computing industry In the late 50's, early 60's, the computing industry pretty much was IBM. Then IBM modularized the design of its systems starting with OS 360. With a modularized design, transactions costs for component suppliers went down, and component suppliers began to sprout and multiply. Sure, IBM managed to maintain its monopoly on mainframes, but IBM didn't manage to maintain monopolies in subsystems such as disk drives, printers, and data input devices.

    And the process repeated. The minicomputer market started with complete domination by Digital Equipment Corporation whose tight integration of hardware and operating system allowed them to perform better when minicomputers weren't as good as people needed. Then the design of mini-computers modularized and comptetitors like Data General, Wang, and Prime Computer became biggger players. Note that, contrary to Lenin's theory, the big capitalist monopoly, namely IBM, did not have significant presence in that market.

    Moving on to the personal computer market, the first big player was Apple. Again they were an integrated end to end supplier. Of course they lost out fairly early on to the modularized IBM architecture. But look what happened there. While the big monopolist, IBM, was a significant player, they never dominated personal computers. Furthermore the personal computer market is fragmented into many component industries, from disk drives to operating systems, to CPUs, to integrators, and on and on. In some of these markets there have been monopolies - most notably Microsoft. But others are very competitive, for instance disk drives and RAM.

    And so over the last few decades computing has gone from virtually complete dominance by one monolithic company, namely IBM, to being a whole slew of industries (many, admittedly, far bigger than all of computing had been) in which there are a few monopolies and a slew of competitive segments with many companies slugging away.

  2. discount retail chains I won't do the rest in such detail. But remember that I just said that economic theory doesn't say that capitalism is just going in one direction? Instead you have to carefully look at the transaction costs?

    Well this is a good example.

    With the advent of computerized inventory systems, it is possible for a discount retailer to manage to watch many different product categories and analyze all of them in detail without fighting the bureaucracy and overhead that would have made this task unthinkable a few decades ago. The result is that the company that does this best, namely Walmart, is proving to have a powerful lock on the market. Competitors who screwed up, like Kmart, have been killed. And the economies of scale are such that, at this point, any newcomer is at a huge disadvantage.

    And so we've seen a huge monopoly grow.

    However stop and think. As big and powerful as Walmart may be, are they going to be inclined to actually replace their various suppliers? I submit not. Why not? Because doing those jobs themselves would be more expensive than their current strategy - they would have to aquire the skills that their current suppliers have and they've already managed to squeeze virtually all of the profit margin out of those segments.

  3. Airlines For years conventional wisdom in airlines has been that there is going to be a big shakeout, and the last one left standing is going to be left with a profitable monopoly.

    What has been the result of capitalists trying to apply Lenin's theory of how to do business?

    All major airlines have lost money for years with no end in sight. Furthermore now that it looks like some of the major players actually will fail, consolidating that market, the entire segment is being eaten up from the bottom by discount airlines like Jet Blue and Southwestern.

  4. Newspapers I don't know much about the newspaper industry, but here's my impression from afar.

    All newspapers publish similar national stories and syndicated columns. The result is economies of scale that lead naturally to consolidation. This consolidation is limited by the fact that, in a democracy, we'd like multiple sources of news. Therefore there are media ownership rules (which are steadily being eroded). The result is sadily predictable.

  5. Broadcast media My understanding is that this industry looks a lot like the newspaper industry. In fact some people (like Rupert Murdoch) are big players in both.

  6. Petroleum Once there was Standard Oil.

    Today, to name a few of the big players, there are Shell, Mobil, Chevron, Getty, Texaco, Gulf, Socal, and so on. And in many parts of the world you have tons of little wildcat operators. Heck, one George Bush used to run one named Arbusto. (It was a failure of course.)

    Sure, Standard Oil was broken up by anti-trust law. But, once broken up, I don't think that it naturally would have reformed in today's economy.

  7. Anything Isn't that category kind of broad? :-)


I think that my point is made. The natural progression that Lenin predicted hasn't played out. Sometimes monopolies have advantages. Sometimes the industry naturally divides into competitive segments. It isn't simple to figure out which will happen in a given case, but economists believe that you can generally work it out by taking a careful look at transaction costs.
Certainly the natural progression that Lenin postulated towards a single monopoly hasn't played out.

Nice hand-wave there. Has capitalism fully matured yet? Hardly. There are so many new worlds to conquer (Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Russia's on its way but still has far more to exploit, etc.). And surely you agree that at least the goal of every enterprise is to become Lenin's single monopoly, yes? (Think MSFT for example here)

Nice hand-wave yourself. If capitalism survives another millenium you'd still be able to say that if we just wait long enough that capitalism would fully mature into Lenin's prophecy. No amount of history or evidence can address the argument because capitalism is not yet over. You can therefore hold your worldview immune to evidence for as long as capitalism survives.

Now I agree that companies generally would like to grow forever at rates above the market. And this would eventually lead to an all-encompassing monopoly.

But there is nothing in history to suggest that they have any reasonable hope of succeeding in that (unless, perhaps, they get control of the government). To cite one study, Stall Points was a report from the Corporate Strategy Board in 1998. It found that of the 172 companies that spent time on Fortune's list of the 50 largest companies between 1955 and 1995, 95% saw their growth stall to rates at or below the rate of GNP growth. Of those who stalled, only 4% were able to successfully reignite their growth even to a rate of 1% above GNP growth.

This strongly suggests that companies have a natural lifecycle. They spot an opportunity. They grow. They may be successful in entering related businesses. Their corporate overhead calcifies, the opportunities that they depend on stagnates, and the company reaches a peak. They then stall and either fade away slowly, or eventually collapse.

You don't even have to focus on the details of growth rates to see this. Over that 40 year period, 172 companies managed to get to within the 50 largest. At the end only 50 were there. All would have liked to be and certainly tried. But over 70% of them failed.
With the evidence at hand, I'd vastly prefer defending Lenin's theory to yours.

Now that you've been given a better picture of the evidence, would you still say that?

As I mention above, no matter how long we wait, you can always say that capitalism hasn't played itself out. But the existing evidence doesn't indicate to me or to economists in general that there is a natural progress of capitalism towards a dominant monopoly.

Don't get me wrong. At any given time there will be monopolies out there, some of which are very abusive. And their aims will make communists like yourself rather smug and self-satisfied. But both history and the underlying economics strongly suggests that they are a self-limiting problem. The limits may not be where we'd like (and hence I'd like legislation to make the limits be more to my taste), but they are implicit in capitalism and are extremely effective in the long run.

The result is that the monopolies that you complain about today are generally not the ones that you would have complained about a few decades ago and are not the ones that you will complain about in a few more decades. For instance in computing you would have complained about IBM 20 years ago the same way that you're complaining about MSFT today. I'd be willing to bet you $100 that in 20 years there will be another evil monopoly in computing with dreams of taking over the world, and it won't be MSFT that we'll be bitching about. (In fact I believe that MSFT has already stalled, and it is likely that within 10 years it will be abundantly clear that the best days of their monopoly have come and gone.)

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Why doesn't anyone ever point out ...
95% saw their growth stall to rates at or below the rate of GNP growth
Isn't it eventually a fool's game to evaluate your returns against GNP? Let's say Everything Corp. manages to develop monoploies in every market segment they enter. They abuse their monopolies at every opportunity. They make fabulous profits. Eventually they are the only company in the world.

They are the GNP.

If we take the top 50 corporations in total sales, they must represent a significant portion of the total economy. How long can all the largest corporations expect to outstrip the combined average of all the corporations? It just doesn't make sense to me that we consider growing at merely the same rate as the economy (or the same rate as inflation) to be a negative.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New GDP and business size
[link|http://www.osha.gov/dcsp/smallbusiness/sb_facts.html|http://www.osha.gov/...ess/sb_facts.html]


Small businesses...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
create more than 50 percent of non-farm private gross domestic product (GDP),
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Found another link. This one has no GDP data, but it has payroll data. Assuming that people don't get paid for nothing, I am taking payroll as substitute for GDP.

[link|http://www.census.gov/csd/susb/susb01.htm|http://www.census.go...d/susb/susb01.htm]







<500 employees
500-999 employees
1,000-2,499 employees
2,500-4,999 employees
5,000-9,999 employees
10,000 or more employees

1,767,546,642
203,984,554
281,952,217
232,662,113
255,249,225
1,247,691,572



Companies below 5,000 employees pay almost twice as much as those above 10,000
--


- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.

[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]

Expand Edited by Arkadiy Jan. 28, 2005, 05:17:21 PM EST
New Red Queen strikes again!
Sometimes, Alice, you have to keep running just to stand still.

You're right that no company can escape economic gravity forever. However that doesn't relieve the pressure to try.

The problem is that large companies are owned by investors, and investors want their investments to perform well. The value of your investment is based on expected future returns. If a company is growing, the expectation is that it will some day make a lot more, and so it is valued highly. If it isn't growing, then the expectation is that you can value it at a fairly boring multiple of current returns.

The transition can be very shocking. From the same report, of those companies that stalled, only 5% lost less than a quarter of their market value. Under 1/3 lost less than half their market value. And over 40% lost over 3/4 of their market value. Generally the size of these drops are fairly rational reactions to the resetting of future expectations for those companies.

Investors notice that kind of drop and apply pressure on management to keep it from happening. Furthermore thanks to stock options, key employees (including executives) tend to also be investors. This results in a very personal motivation to avoid that situation.

Now do you understand why a growing company feels so much pressure to keep on growing?

Cheers,
Ben

PS For this thread, comparing to GNP luckily happened to be appropriate because you can't keep on the path towards world domination unless you manage to beat GNP growth for a very long time. And the rate of failure to do that suggests that nobody is likely to succeed, ever.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Keep drinkin' the Kool-Aid, pal.
But one of your comments in that post is hilarious.

But there is nothing in history to suggest that they have any reasonable hope of succeeding in that (unless, perhaps, they get control of the government).

"unless, perhaps, ..."

Good One.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New Right now, you're one to talk about kool-aid
But go ahead and ignore all of the data that you want. Nobody can make you face facts. And it certainly makes it easier for you to avoid challenging your existing belief system.

About that one comment that you find hilarious, the point of my qualification is that the only way that a capitalist company can succeed in becoming the economy is for them to subvert capitalism. Furthermore I think that it is more than a wee bit counterproductive to implement the universal governmental monopoly that Communism has so far worked out to be to head off the distant possibility that a capitalistic company will manage to establish a similar monopoly.

Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New To elaborate
A company is run by a group of people. Call them Group A.

A government is run by a group of people. Call them Group B.

Letting Group A run the country, including control of Group B, is bad.
Letting Group B run the country, including control of Group A, is good?

Maybe the real problem is when too much control is vested in too few hands, with no non-violent mechanism to change those hands. Before you point out that we have elections for the government but not for corporations, explain:
  • The 96% incumbancy rate
  • The fact that the incumbant parties select the slate of people for us to choose from
  • The fact that people choose to (try to) become CEOs for the money, people try to become politicians for the power -- which is more dangerous?
Then once you can explain all of that, maybe you can provide statistics on the average tenure of elected officials vs the average tenure of corporate officers.

I happen to believe that corporations wield too much power. My disagreement is with the idea that fixing the problem requires vesting all that power in politicians.
===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
New Decent encapsulation - leaving US with,
Where to vest all that power/$ - other than in fewer and fewer obscenely-large pockets?

If that is the/a Major Question, it is a philosophical one not managed (manageable?) via the framers of the Constitution. Their premise was that "free people would remain vigilant!" against all the forces that tend --> corruption.

Nobody expected devolvement of vox pop into a homogenized mass of people too busy just 'consuming', too bemused, lazy? even to pay attention - while flaccidly sorta wishing for "matters to be handled Wisely" cha cha cha
(perhaps by the Sooth Fairy?)

So if we can't expect (the half who even bother to vote) to persistently demand legislation which restores the value of A Vote VS the power of The PACs to buy large blocs of representatives; if we can no longer expect that many votes shall be 'informed' ones; and if we know that the aim of every Corporation is to become as near-monopoly as ever it can finagle: Who does that leave to oversee either bizness or the Country?

And if it is the trend of groups >100 millions to behave in this way.. well, so much for all that political theory -- perhaps each of the US States (or small blocs) should become Nation States; gamble that a manageable size of population just might find enough common cause.. to get off asses and participate [???]
(With nukes, Anyone can 'kinda expect borders to be respected' - see Israel.)

Maybe we just Like To Watch:
present trends of wealth concentration project that we may expect the 1-2% soon to Own US, say 2/3 GNP == close enough. Something will always rush in to fill the vacuum of universal Ennui. What shall we call the New Millennium Murica then? (Corruptocracy is so unmellifluous a word)



I think 'we've become unutterably Boring.. the only Dreams are for more More and yet-MORE [of whatever stuff is New New New this month]. Fat chance of finding 'Renewal', an aim to rethink any aims gone awry - amidst a homogenized mass afflicted with terminal Consumption Disease. Then too - watching such rapid decline is never terribly amusing.. it's just like watching Fav Murican Tee Vee plots. {Ugh}
New Nation-states. I've been saying that since high school.
Mostly to broad condemnation. If I recall my history correctly, the population of the country at the framers' time was roughly equal to the population of the state of Indiana today. Think of the consolidation of power by politicians in that span of time! Today 2 people in the Senate represent virtually the same number of people that were represented by the entire Senate back then. I don't think the framers would have suggested a Senate consisting of two people for the entire country; in fact, they didn't.

A loose confederation of independent states, I remain convinced, is the only way to salvage the ideal self-determination described in our Constitution.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
New *grin* A Rebel!
Wear the Gray proudly... And hey! They believed in a two-class system, too!

*chuckle*
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Well, I *am* a tarheel, you know. :-)
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
(Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
     It can't happen here? - (tuberculosis) - (32)
         Hey, Arkadiy, remember the old definition of Capitalism? - (mmoffitt) - (31)
             Which one? -NT - (Arkadiy) - (30)
                 A socio-economic system in the last stages of decay. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (29)
                     That's not a definition - (Arkadiy) - (28)
                         No Logic???? - (mmoffitt) - (27)
                             No logic. - (Arkadiy) - (3)
                                 His claim is the first sentence. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                     It's not a claim - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                         As Bush's Treasury Secretary John Snow once said, - (mmoffitt)
                             That isn't logic - (ben_tilly) - (22)
                                 It certainly is a logical argument. - (mmoffitt) - (21)
                                     Re: It certainly is a logical argument. - (Booboo) - (9)
                                         Heh. - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                                             perfect example, the beast is decaying - (daemon) - (7)
                                                 Last I looked, it's market share hadn't diminished much. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                                     Re: Last I looked, it's market share hadn't diminished much. - (Booboo)
                                                     They just reported best quarter ever - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                                         Ah yes, the vaunted market knows all. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                                     But they've stopped growing - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                                         OMG! They "stopped growing" at 97% market share. Go figure. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                                             As pointed out already, no company has come close to that - (ben_tilly)
                                     FYI, here's some of the evidence for my view - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                         Why doesn't anyone ever point out ... - (drewk) - (2)
                                             GDP and business size - (Arkadiy)
                                             Red Queen strikes again! - (ben_tilly)
                                         Keep drinkin' the Kool-Aid, pal. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                             Right now, you're one to talk about kool-aid - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                                                 To elaborate - (drewk) - (4)
                                                     Decent encapsulation - leaving US with, - (Ashton) - (3)
                                                         Nation-states. I've been saying that since high school. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                                                             *grin* A Rebel! - (imric) - (1)
                                                                 Well, I *am* a tarheel, you know. :-) -NT - (mmoffitt)

Prolly need to go back for "reeducation"...
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