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New Evangelical xians no better than everyone else
[link|http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2005/001/3.8.html|http://www.christian...2005/001/3.8.html]

Then the pollsters started conducting scientific polls of the general population. In spite of the renewal movement's proud claims to miraculous transformation, the polls showed that members of the movement divorced their spouses just as often as their secular neighbors. They beat their wives as often as their neighbors. They were almost as materialistic and even more racist than their pagan friends. The hard-core skeptics smiled in cynical amusement at this blatant hypocrisy. The general population was puzzled and disgusted. Many of the renewal movement's leaders simply stepped up the tempo of their now enormously successful, highly sophisticated promotional programs. Others wept.

This, alas, is roughly the situation of Western or at least American evangelicalism today.

Scandalous behavior is rapidly destroying American Christianity. By their daily activity, most "Christians" regularly commit treason. With their mouths they claim that Jesus is Lord, but with their actions they demonstrate allegiance to money, sex, and self-fulfillment.
---
Not really news to most of us - just have to look and see.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New This is surprising?
Of course not. They are just people.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Ignore
slow network...



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Jan. 24, 2005, 07:45:14 AM EST
New Pushy self righteous people who claim to know a better way
and are apparently wrong.

Note that this focuses on evangelicals - the preachy pushy group. Not your run of the mill church goers.

If you can't walk your talk - sit down and shut up.



"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush
New *shrug*
Evangelicals are all right. Problem occurs when they
a) preach to those that obviously don't want to hear the message (ignoring the 'pearls before swine' message: Don't preach to those that won't listen),

b) they pay more attention to dogma than the message,

c) they feel self-righteous or superior because they 'get it' and those they preach to don't,

d) they get the map confused with the territory - they believe that acting like (what they think a Christian is like) a 'Christian' is the same as being a Christian or

e) they are hypocrites using religion for gain (social, political or economical).

The worst of these fall under 'all of the above' of course; these are IMO the individuals that cause people to judge the whole group badly.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Well.. the hypocrisy thing is pretty universal
and hardly the sole province of Christians, although certain of the now countless sects appear to possess the concentration-gene for this heady hallucinant of self-forgetfullness. Why at extremes: some are even known to completely forget, vengeance is mine, saith __ .. let alone that cute one about beams/motes (or throwing stones)

But whether or not a 'Christian' is really BEING a Christ-ian comes out in certain visible behavioural artifacts IMO: the Greed-is-Good thing (or not?) .. Gosh, was Ronnie a Christian?

More importantly re smaller matters.. like, say - survival of the species, all the billions - is the *cough* Elitism-thing. Promulgating a pre-packaged theology of Exclusion:

Whereby all those who do not buy the 'home' or Commercial Version, after removing the shrink-wrap [ie akshully Reading all the barbaric stuff intermixed amidst countless contradictions, and with the Love stuff - so evidently honored vastly more in its breach than its performance] -- all those Other billions get consigned to a Xian Hell thing.


Those scribes and their Editors accomplished quite imaginitive feats, presumably without the aid of authentic Bad Acid, No?


Ah well, Fellow Elitist - I admit I'm one too; indeed I acknowledge a preference for folks who actually Use their fucking Gawd-given minds - both intellectual AND emotional - in dealing with the Grand Mysteries (and I even like to see in such a one.. a clear appreciation of how it is that committees of Men-type homo saps are utterly incapable of Not-garbling the really Heavy stuff on ANY topic.)

Because {pious chords in C# Minor}
I. have. looked. on. these. Men. {/chords}

and I see at near-#2 CIEIO spot:
a wretched textbook-misogynist; you know: the really Popular guy who spawned what came to be a whole new tiny country/city in what is now called 'Italy'? Probably impotent and decidedly infected with diseased attitudes towards all Not-him, (and especially if they had a vagina) - can ya really found a Massive Corporation around an emotional cripple?




Why.. YES!
You can.. for a lengthy period, but -
at what cost in near-universally diseased mental health and the wars generated by Being the Only Right Ones\ufffd?


OK - Over to Elitist #2
er :-\ufffd
New The thing is
they claim to be.

After reading the article, I think the author needs to apply Occam's Razor to the problem. The actual situation is that most of the people who claim to be Christian aren't. For most people, their church is a social club, not faith.

For example, the author is still willing to condemn those who cohabitate. Now, according to the article, fully one in five evangelicals think adultery in marriage is OK. I'm not even married, and I would never consider fooling around on my partner, and have not, despite over two years of separation while I go to school.

Who's more Christian, the person who observes the rituals but ignores the precepts, or the person who ignores the rituals but follows the precepts? Most of the evangelical movement in the US seems to be made up of the former, not the latter.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New Interesting point
Who's more Christian, the person who observes the rituals but ignores the precepts, or the person who ignores the rituals but follows the precepts? Most of the evangelical movement in the US seems to be made up of the former, not the latter.

That is a religious question itself, and one that might play into the evangelical belief that grace is more important then works. Evangelicals may be more willing to overlook errors of precepts then somebody who centers their beliefs on the importance of works.

At the very least, history shows them as being easier to manipulate by leaders who can follow the rituals despite lack of commitment to precepts.

Jay
New The prescription: More of the same
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New On the same topic, sort of.

From G.K. Chesterton's defense of Christianity in The Everlasting Man, on contemporary critics of the faith (written in 1925):

\r\n\r\n

They will suddenly turn round and revile the Church for not having prevented the War, which they themselves did not want to prevent; and which nobody had ever professed to be able to prevent, except some of that very school of progressive and cosmopolitan sceptics who are the chief enemies of the Church. It was the anti-clerical and agnostic world that was always prophesying the advent of universal peace; it is that world that was, or should have been, abashed and confounded by the advent of universal war. As for the general view that the Church was discredited by the War -- they might as well say that the Ark was discredited by the Flood. When the world goes wrong, it proves rather that the Church is right. The Church is justified, not because her children do not sin, but because they do.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
Expand Edited by ubernostrum Jan. 25, 2005, 02:16:09 AM EST
New Ah.. so then
First: Welcome! Original argument is ever the Grail; so much these days is rehash of repetitive chestnuts; maybe something about attention span?

It was the anti-clerical and agnostic world that was always prophesying the advent of universal peace
Since the prelude to a change is - the wanting of something else - here we are to, instead: credit Mother Church for accurately predicting that Her Believers were Right (again) -?- Yup, it was war.

This would seem to suggest that it is Best to

Preserve the status quo (or if possible - regress, even?) lest some radical activists succeed eventually, in overturning Mother Church's Believers' propensity for launching endless wars over Which sect's God is Bigger.

I think I'll go with [link|http://www.users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html| Bertie Russell's] logic still, on this topic -- (I don't think the planet can survive another century like the previous - under such Ethical Management and its lengthy history of Conservatism fossilized thoughtlessness.

Sorry GK - but you were a Silly in 1925 and.. it doesn't scan any better in '05.
New Status quo?

The notion of Christianity as defender of the status quo is one that always makes me laugh, whether invoked by a critic or a would-be supporter; to my mind, it's about the furthest thing possible from conservatism. I think that with Christianity comes an understanding (not an acceptance, though) of human fallibility, and so wars and other man-made tragedies are not surprising, which is of course what G.K. was getting at. This doesn't mean they shouldn't be rooted out and stopped, it's simply an acknowledgement of the types of obstacles which stand in the way of doing so.

\r\n\r\n

It is, of course, very easy to argue from a hard theism to the preservation of the status quo -- whatever is, is right, because otherwise God wouldn't let it be that way. But it is equally easy to reach the same conclusion from hard atheism -- given the rules of natural selection we can conclude that whatever is, is fittest. Both of these arguments fail, however, and for the same reason: they assume that their subject matter deals only with fixed states and never with processes or changes, while in truth Christianity and evolution are both entirely about ongoing change.

\r\n\r\n

And I admire Russell's mathematical and philosophic work, but at times he reminds me of the rest of the Chesterton quote I posted:

\r\n\r\n

But these people have got into an intermediate state, have fallen into an intervening valley from which they can see neither the heights beyond nor the heights behind. They cannot get out of the penumbra of Christian controversy. They cannot be Christians and they cannot leave off being anti-Christians. Their whole atmosphere is the atmosphere of a reaction: sulks, perversity, petty criticism. They still live in the shadow of the faith and have lost the light of the faith.

\r\n

Now the best relation to our spiritual home is to be near enough to love it. But the next best is to be far enough away not to hate it. It is the contention of these pages that while the best judge of Christianity is a Christian, the next best judge would be something like a Confucian. The worst judge of all is the man now most ready with his judgments; the ill-educated Christian turning gradually into the ill-tempered agnostic, entangled in the end of a feud of which he never understood the beginning, blighted with a sort of hereditary boredom with he knows not what, and already weary of hearing what he has never heard.

\r\n\r\n

And for what it's worth, the Twentieth was, if anything, really the century of secularism trying desperately to match religion in both stature and body count.

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New Sorry, you got atheism wrong
You're right that many atheists fall into the trap that you describe, but you're wrong about why it is wrong.

The theory of evolution is about a process of change, yes, but that rate of change generally goes faster than the environment that organisms are attempting to adapt to. Therefore most of the time, most organisms are pretty well adapted to their current environment and do not have any obvious improvements (or they would have made them).

Therefore even though evolution is a process of change, at most times it predicts that things should stay pretty much the same. And if it doesn't predict that, then there should be a good reason why things just changed.

Now clearly the impact of society and technology has gone faster than evolution, and we as a species have not caught up. But it is dangerous to shove through that hole all of our wishes that people would be different. Down that path lies a long history of bad thinking - study the history of Social Darwinism for a sample.

For the real reason why that thinking is flawed you have to understand that there are many different norms that we are dealing with, and they are not equivalent. They are not even well correlated!

Evolutionary success is entirely predicated on having lots of descendents. Period. In our society traits that are selected for include being Catholic, being on welfare, and not being particularly careful with birth control. Traits that are selected against include wanting a career (particularly for women).

This kind of success has nothing to do with success as materialistic society measures it. In fact the two are negatively correlated - someone who has raised lots of kids is unlikely to have had the time and energy to have had a stellar career.

And both those kinds of success have nothing to do with any kind of socially accepted morality. For instance a successful serial rapist might be evolutionarily very successful (though the police will try to limit his success), but certainly is not a moral exemplar.

So avoid the word "best", or if you use it, stay very aware of what standard you're measuring goodness by. Because people have a tendancy to not be very clear on the fact that best is often not very good (after you switch norms), and this leads to confusion.

Cheers,
Ben

PS Welcome. It is always nice to see a new face - particularly one who takes a novel tack on familiar topics.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Re: Sorry, you got atheism wrong

For the sort of argument I'm describing, one's norms really don't matter; the argument runs something like this: "Evolution leads to the triumph of the fittest. Therefore the people who are on top (of society, of whatever) are the fittest. Therefore they deserve to be on top, and the status quo should be preserved." Regardless of the terms in which one measures success, those who come out ahead in that category are described as the "fittest" and the rest of the argument runs as normal.

\r\n\r\n

And it doesn't hold water mainly because it assumes that "fittest" is a static description, when in fact it is not.

\r\n\r\n

Also, when an organism evolves there never has to be a "good reason"; look at the panda's thumb for an example of this.

\r\n\r\n
--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New And there is the fallacy :-)
The assumption that those who are on top of our society are fittest evolutionarily is wrong. Evolutionarily a Donald Trump is less fit than a teenage girl with 4 kids. But you'll seldom find someone who is arguing that we should all emulate the teenager.

Secondly the "evolution implies that things shall remain as they are" argument that I mentioned only makes sense at equilibrium. But I pointed out that evolution has not had time to react to a lot of aspects of our current society, so (as I pointed out) evolution has little connection with what our society requires. (And evolution's goals differ from our societal ones.)

That argument remains true for most species, most of the time. But only because adaptation usually proceeds faster than environments change, so what is fittest now is pretty close to what everything is bred for. (Of course we're now changing our environment faster than evolution can go...)

Thirdly attempting to draw any norms from evolutionary principles is flawed at best. Evolution allows us to note, This seems to work. That doesn't mean that we want things to work like that. The result is kind of like using Machiavelli as your moral compass. There is no question that his strategies are effective. But they're not very nice.

Cheers,
Ben

PS Your reference to the Panda's thumb suggests that you've read at least some Gould. My comment about how things usually should remain as they are is why Gould's theory of punctuated equilibrium says that, most of the time, things are at equilibrium. The exceptions are, of course, very important and not to be underestimated.
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Re: And there is the fallacy :-)

Of course the assumption is wrong. But it's still been made time and time again. My point was simply to show that hard atheism using evolution as a crutch is just as easily bent to defense of the status quo (though usually it's obscured slightly in the guise of laissez-faire capitalism).

--\r\nYou cooin' with my bird?
\r\n[link|http://www.shtuff.us/|shtuff]
New True
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
     Evangelical xians no better than everyone else - (tuberculosis) - (16)
         This is surprising? - (imric) - (6)
             Ignore - (tuberculosis)
             Pushy self righteous people who claim to know a better way - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                 *shrug* - (imric) - (1)
                     Well.. the hypocrisy thing is pretty universal - (Ashton)
             The thing is - (jake123) - (1)
                 Interesting point - (JayMehaffey)
         The prescription: More of the same -NT - (ben_tilly)
         On the same topic, sort of. - (ubernostrum) - (7)
             Ah.. so then - (Ashton) - (6)
                 Status quo? - (ubernostrum) - (5)
                     Sorry, you got atheism wrong - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                         Re: Sorry, you got atheism wrong - (ubernostrum) - (3)
                             And there is the fallacy :-) - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                 Re: And there is the fallacy :-) - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                                     True -NT - (ben_tilly)

I know kung fu.
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