Post #190,155
1/14/05 9:14:00 AM
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Well, they are noit singled out for their race
For their poverty and their upbringing and their culture, yes. But not for race. At lest not where I live.
When I see a group of young men standing on a corner in loose fitting clothes with a boombox blasting, I certainly don't want to go near them (not enough to actually change the side of street, but the feeling is there). And I know that's not because they are black. How do I know? When I lived near Brighton Beach in Brooklyn, half the time the young men were Russian immigrants. And I still did not like going near them.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,156
1/14/05 9:14:39 AM
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There is no way you can make that assertion
Over here, a parliamentary inquiry that concluded that yes, the Metropolitan Police did have a culture of institutional racism.
So whether it's distasteful or not, people are stopped, searched and jailed just because of their colour.
Peter
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Post #190,160
1/14/05 9:40:17 AM
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OK, I really can't prove it
It's possible that some racists are indeed around and some are in police. And it's quite possible that they organized themselves to make it "institutional culture". I'd have to start selling drugs to find out for sure.
But one thing did happen with racism. It's no longer acceptable, at least in a tri-state area where I live, to be a racist. One is no more likely to boast about his hate for "lesser races" than about his syphilis. Less so.
Whetehr or not it translates into more fair treatment of blacks in law enforcement, I do not indeed know.
A few words in defense of "racial profiling". This is simply pattern recognition. The pattern is that certain kind of person is likely to sell drugs. Another kind of person is not likely to have a Porsche. It may be hard to distinguish a boy waiting on the corner for his friend from a drug dealer, if they dress similarly and behave similarly. Any "spot check" by a cop is some sort of profiling. You don't want the cops to start checking people completely randomly, do you? It would be a waste of time, to say the least.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,162
1/14/05 9:49:05 AM
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I know where you're coming from...
...but I think you're making the mistake of taking your own experience and extrapolating it out to the general case. It's tempting to do, but wrong.
The police around me (in rural North Yorkshire) are all really approachable and friendly; I don't, however, take that to be how they are in nearby inner-city Middlesbrough.
Peter
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Post #190,164
1/14/05 9:55:57 AM
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When I strayed into slums of New York
(I can count the number of times on my fingers - I am not too adventurous), the rare cops that I happened to see there were not friendly and approachable. They were tense. Battlefield kind of tense, I'd say.
Overall, I have agree with [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=190156|Jay], and add that the post in question was a case of "idiot left winger"
--
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[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,166
1/14/05 10:01:50 AM
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Profile only when there is statistical evidence
A few words in defense of "racial profiling". This is simply pattern recognition. When profiling is based on real statistical evidence, I have no problem with it. When it just provides cover for personal bias then it is a problem. For example, the whole argument over "driving while black" has died down. Part of the reason is that detailed studies have shown that in general there is little or no bias in traffic arrests on highways. The police watch cars, not drivers, and because of that racism dosn't play into it much. On the other hand, studies have also shown racism in prosecution is a significant problem. All other things being equal, a black person found guilty of a crime will probably get a stiffer sentence. Any "spot check" by a cop is some sort of profiling. You don't want the cops to start checking people completely randomly, do you? Some random checks are a good idea. Drug cartels have adapted to profiling by intentionally picking runners that don't match the profiles. Jay
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Post #190,167
1/14/05 10:10:05 AM
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I am almost with you
Except when you say "statistical evidence", you probably mean surweys and data analysis and distinguished commissions and official police procedures adop[ted five years after the beginning of the comprehensive study. When I say "pattern recognition", I mean the gut feeling that a police officer develops about a guy standing on the corner. I, for one, would assign higher risk value to a typical-looking inner-city black male than to a fellow like myself. Then again, may be I am a racist for saying "typical-looking black male". But you folks know what I am talking about, don't you?
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,176
1/14/05 10:36:51 AM
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Racist no ...
Stereotyping yes...
What's a "typical black male" and how does that differ from a "typical white male" or a "typical hmong male" or a "typical gay male" or a "typical Pakistani male" etc, etc, etc
What's different is to be feared...
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
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Post #190,208
1/14/05 2:51:11 PM
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Fine.
Call it "typical inner city male" that happens to be black. A guy who thinks that going to college is not a "black thing". A gangsta rapper kind of guy.
When you read "typical black male", did _you_ think of that specimen? or did you think of Bill Cosby? If you thought of Mr. Cosby, my hat is off to you and may I please move to your neghbohood?
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,214
1/14/05 3:41:10 PM
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Re: I am almost with you
When I say "pattern recognition", I mean the gut feeling that a police officer develops about a guy standing on the corner. The problem is how do you tell racism from valid experience? Are you homing in on the guy standing on the corner because there is some subtle clue about the way he is watching the crowd that says he is suspicious or because he is black? A cop that stops the first guy is going on years of experience, the second on racism. But both will tell you they are going on their gut instincts. Jay
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Post #190,248
1/14/05 8:02:24 PM
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I can't tell.
But I am giving the cops the benefits of the doubt. A real racist is a racist in his entire life, not only at work. I'd expect some other things show up, besides racial profiling.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,334
1/16/05 12:23:46 AM
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You should meet my cousin.
He's a model cop. He's got numerous citations and awards. Lotsa letters of commendation from all over the place. He's been on the show "Cops" a few times.
Never met a nigger he liked.
Needless to say, he and I don't get along very well.
There's this guy on the bus, ex-cop. He's black, works in security at a local department store. He takes the bus to work because he got tired of getting pulled over all the time on his way to work - why?
Because he's black. I've driven with him - he doesn't drive crazy, he's a nice guy, but he's black.
That shit is ALL over the place.
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our disposal hundred megawatt laser beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his 'SMITE' button for our fire control system."
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Post #190,525
1/17/05 10:22:23 PM
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a real racist can be an honest cop
new a marine sargent, jews this, Baker is a contraction of von Bakker (Baker was a prominent local wasp bidnessman} Jews run everything, hitler was right etc. I kept trying to find out where I could signup for my check. He didnt know but insisted the local rabbi could help me out there.
Didnt see him for a few years until after about 4 fast beers I get pulled over by a state trooper for a broken tail light. If I had to blow a breathalizer I would have blown over. Its the same guy, bs'd for minute ("say didnt you used to work as a marine recruiter?"} he asks me how many beers Ive had. (alaska has the heaviest penalties in the nation for DUI/DWI) he said be careful driving home and let me go. He did recognise me, knew I was "one of them" and didnt take advantage of it. I have met other cops that hated black offenders yet were professional in their dealings with them.
Think about an Israeli Police officer, some are racists some are professional.
regards,
daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE
clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #190,161
1/14/05 9:45:19 AM
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Over here it's hard to tell
Over here it's hard to tell if they are being oppressed for being in the lower class or being oppressed for being of the wrong race. Both happen on a regular basis, and it's often some mix of the two combined.
Idiot right wingers use that uncertainty to deny that either racism or classism is a problem. Idiot left wingers claim their particular group is the primary target of all opression because of one particular trait and deny that any of the rest of it is a real problem.
Jay
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