Post #189,969
1/12/05 6:45:12 PM
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Moving on ---> to metaphysics and The non-Spotless Mind
Is Democracy pass\ufffd? asks a not-Republican essayist
Just hearing a report on NPR by PW Singer, author of, Children at War - a chronicle of Iran's, later Iraq's creation of a Kiddie Corps of cannon fodder, intended to clear mine fields, rush-in (where even the Six Hundred of the Light Brigade would have flinched) -
Each was 'issued' a little key on a chain: the key to the Gates of Heaven. As the Ayatollah promised each one. This is one replacement: a theocracy. One Right -Strong- opinion. All ya need next is Nukes - to Win the very large rotating cinder.
So then, do we not - most of us - pretty much understand nay.. comprehend the Fond Wish of the Fundie, immersed, bemused, unHappy within a techno explosion of ideas, possibilities {+ and -} and New Forks, appearing to coalesce every day? How to do that? Kill any use/respect for 'knowledge' - choose Faith. Alone. cha.
Is this any other than a plaintive yearning for those 'Goodest'-Old / Days of Yore, when women knew their place {it wasn't On Top}, darkies knew their place {it wasn't on the same sidewalk, let alone section of town} and ...
You Were Either FOR 'U.S.'(A.ye) or you were AGIN US.
Now our perhaps least Reactionary, least fossilized? debating member Mike M queries -- in the spirit of actual contemplation of whence we have come, where 'we' are.. and whether or not that sharp horizon-line just ahead in the mist is an undercut abyss or (merely a small chasm on the way to a nice stair case) heading ^up^ --
He raises The Question, which I must rephrase Because it is There: Is there provocative, persuasive.?. compelling.!. evidence that, we have now *reached* that stage warned about by (that Other Ben) - the prescient Franklin?
Has our internal corruption on many scales and in most areas of social intercourse (as more and more pack heat) surpassed the -line- beyond which 'the center cannot hold / the thing unravels / (your fav)' Hmmm?
One could list zillions of anecdotal material from experience, and we'd each pick a different assortment. Mere random selection:
- the palpable oozing-in of sheer Dumbth, - the increasing inanity of the popular 'entertainments', - the mindless Black/White Good/Evil Yes/No nondebates on all levels, - the perpetually pre-adolescent sniggering behavio(u)r re anything to do with sex, gender, bodies + their functions and Ooohhhh: n u d i t y
- that underlying current, akin to the left-over \ufffdwave background from Son of Big Bang: the lugubrious Puritanism rampant amidst the transistors and nanobots; (never mind all those unread books moldering in those unfunded libraries + an entire army of psychs and shrinks: treating those embedded guilt syndromes.)
- and on and on, but Always evident: - the unremitting Nastiness of Biz-tactics, the pervasive Daily Lying, the by-design dyslogic of all political mewlings and daily tales of road- cubicle/Postal- spousal- rage, all of which afflictions lead more and more homo-saps towards -->
- a Need for those Drugs: ever to momentarily escape the horrific Bedlam *We* have created and tolerate, ovinely. Gutlessly: in trade for the corporate spew of endless New Toys.
If then, we have become ~ a clinically insane loosely-connected 'nation' of Me-Me-Me Zero-sum gamesters, hollow-materialists utterly adoring only of.. the One-God Money (with periodic pretense that it's some Other God we Really 'Love') --
Then: what-if 'democracy' is a Good Thing only within a window of opportunity, and only amidst curious, tolerant, energetic, unfearful, cooperative, generous (spirit + re all-that-stuff) mutually-respectful ____ creatures?
Because if that were the rough-set of attributes of the Democracy OS: it would appear that the Fundie Mindset is the stake in its heart. And if the US OS model is 'Doze ...
Isn't the yearning for Rapturin Out, merely YAN treacly faux-religio cant for that old cold-war chestnut,
Better DEAD than 'RED'
???
Could be spelled 'read', past tense of read - or even pronounced, well-read: as in more than One Book / year or lifetime. (elide the obv. red/blue - because we gots Good Taste.)
Perhaps, in the Year of Our Ford 1 Descendants of the Prescott Bush Clan shall obviate all the disruptive yammering, spoiled business efficiency and Take. Charge.
(or, is 'Bushie' a contraction of bullshitter? as a friend used to remark pre-41, even)
Ah.. the local kitty, Sierra shows up. *She* Knows What's Basic.
The common condition of things that did not happen is that you cannot disprove them. Anon.
Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both. - James Madison
As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. H.L. Mencken
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Post #189,974
1/12/05 7:46:20 PM
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democracy is never a good thing
rome is/was the embodiment of democracy (for the chosen few natch) and once the assclowns got a whiff of bread and circuses it was off to the races of destruction. We are at that state now, circuses in the prisons and theatres, breadline and corporate line. Majority rules sneer the rulers and all we can glance at is the tired tattered copies of the constituton that do not have void where prohibited stamped in commie read all over it. Pehaps the problem is not enough guns in the street, might make people a tad more polite. regards, daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #189,979
1/12/05 8:39:15 PM
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Has anyone ever been as prescient as Mencken?
How true the quote in your post.
As you've followed that horrifically long thread where I once again failed to express my thoughts as well as you have summarized here, you know my answers to the questions you posed.
bcnu, Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #190,026
1/13/05 2:27:45 AM
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To repy to you in the "right" forum
OK, so the democracy is not the right system when the majority is "mean" or "unenlightened". From this point on, any ranting on election fraud coming from you will be severely discounted and shunned.
--
- I was involuntarily self-promoted into management.
[link|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484|Richard Stallman]
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Post #190,031
1/13/05 4:43:41 AM
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You're not likely to see any from me anymore.
At least not as concerns the US. The thoughts I've expressed in the past couple of threads come from an extremely unpleasant lesson the last election taught me. I've come to realize that I'd given the majority of Americans entirely too much credit. I could not, until last November, believe that G. W. Bush and his policies were what the majority of Americans wanted. November taught me that I was wrong.
That is what is so disheartening about the 2004 election for me. I have finally lost faith in the majority of American people. If the majority of Americans had the anything approximating the moral fiber I believed present in all human beings, Bush would have gotten no more than 10% of the vote. Not that Kerry was much better, but we knew what Bush et. al. were like, and the majority of us saw fit to support him. At the Democratic Convention, Jimmy Carter said this election was about "the very soul of our nation." I agreed with him. And the nation spoke.
That the world's greatest power could be in the hands of ... I can't even say it. It is too painful. The question I raised, "Is democracy in America any longer a good thing for the world given the attitudes and beliefs of the majority of Americans?" is still an open question. But for me, at least, the openness of that question is coming to a close.
bcnu, Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #190,183
1/14/05 12:41:49 PM
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Remember Nixon?
Or Reagan or Clinton or any of the other two termers in my lifetime? You write:
"That is what is so disheartening about the 2004 election for me. I have finally lost faith in the majority of American people."
To whit, whoopity doody do! It's about fricking time! Join the party, Mikey - the real party in this three party system. The party of the majority. The disillusioned masses of nonvoters who no longer "believe in" any of the assclowns dredged up every four years to bellow platitudes and the same tired mantras of their long ago irrelevent "parties". I view those of you with passion for the political parties with the same distance as those of Hinduism versus Judeo-christian philosophies. I buy into a little of what everyone is saying but not enough of what anyone is saying to cast my tacit approval. (Natch) Welcome to the Machine. Welcome to the club.
FWIW, this is what I've been trying to tell you sad sack assclowns all last year (I was going to take the high road and not say "I told you so" - oh well!) I blame folks like you (nattering nabobs of negativity) for leading my former party down the trail of "nothing but negativeness" and insulting the "intelligence of we the fricking people". You got the result I thought - people didn't vote for Bush, they voted against "the void of any ideas except attacks on the current MFAC in office". Kerry ran "against" Bush and not "for" anything. Some people I spoke with in Ohio said they voted for Bush because they felt sorry for him. Think about it.
Any brief interlude with academia will show you that the people who actually "present ideas/research" are by far -BY FAR- outnumbered by those that are trying to discredit their ideas. But even if the idea/research is "silly", the folks presenting still are viewed more positively than those nattering neybobs of negativity trying to tear them apart. It's human nature, I think.
You should have seen it coming... I did. I told you so. You chose not to listen. Oh well... Get 'em again four years from now tiger. Sooner or later the blue will beat the red (the Red Sox won after all).
Don't give up the faith.
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #190,186
1/14/05 12:55:08 PM
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Whew
I was beginning to think noone here "got it".
I'm glad somebody did..even if he is in Ohio ;-)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #190,210
1/14/05 2:52:43 PM
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Hey beep
Get with the program, dude. I'm in Indiana these days (moved five years ago in fact). Now that I'm privy to clean northern Indiana air, my mind is refreshed.
Yeah, sure!
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #190,220
1/14/05 3:55:59 PM
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Yeah...I remember now...
...but... Some people I spoke with in Ohio said they voted for Bush because they felt sorry for him. Think about it. means that you are still at least conversational with those who seem to have lost the ability to prounounce the last syllable of their state's name.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #190,388
1/16/05 2:41:47 PM
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Where TF is the air clean in Indiana?
I'm up here, too, remember. And the water and the air is unbelievably filthy for no more population/industry than we've got.
bcnu, Mikem
Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
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Post #190,453
1/16/05 10:00:26 PM
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The closer you get to Gary
my hoosier compatriot, the better the air and water get...
:-)
At least that's what I've been told.
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #189,985
1/12/05 9:29:16 PM
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to be replaced by?
seems like some here think that there is a "supreme race" of intellectuals who only believe "the right things" and are thus to be deemed "not dangerous". And they should rule the rest because they know whats "good for everybody".
Why not just make the selection by having some watery tart throw a sword at you and be done with it.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #190,001
1/12/05 10:39:14 PM
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you just described the body politic
ever meet these folks? Its always they know best if only people would listen. Thats why they run, the certainty of rightness.
On the other side you have the 4th estate although after watching Coulter the other day Im not sure that "run hard and put away wet" is a qualification for being a political pundit. You think lacking vague knowledge of daily issues might be a stumbling block.
Then you have the professional anti's. They make a very good living getting donations from the guilt ridden while scamming their ass of without mentioning invisible beings.
Also the idealogues who single issue into a political machine. Much like the anti's they amass fortunes supporting their issue and provide blocks of voters to the various machines. Example is the NEA and NRA.
At the end of the day you have the great unwashed who have vague ideas concerning gran's rantings/wisdom depending on what has happened since. They really dont give a flying fuck who runs it as long as it appears that things might get better in the future. This explains why incumbents have a great advantage.
If I ever get really bored I will build a machine ala Guv Long, Chiles, Hickel and stomp a major hole in both the dems and repo's and get shot for my efforts.
regards, daemon
that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
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Post #190,024
1/13/05 2:00:07 AM
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So incoherent and yet so eloquent.
Stab/hug/Stab/hug dichotomy.
Peter [link|http://www.ubuntulinux.org|Ubuntu Linux] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Post #190,034
1/13/05 6:48:54 AM
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Why.. nothing at all.
Isn't that what chaos means?
An 'Elite' replacement VS the Original plan? Not in my mentation. Hah! I wonder just who/which species would watch the Watchers (Gort? or just Klaatu). 'Cui bono' will ever be with us, so long as ego rules the jelloware.
Nope, we lose this imperfect but once ~workable one - We. Lose. I think we are close.
'Democracy' seemed.. our (maybe everyone's) last shining Best Hope. It only needed minimal, but regular/reliable efforts at scrutinizing the Egos volunteering; checking how they *did*: and then throwing out the inevitable %opportunists. Wash, rinse etc.
This has proven to be too onerous a task for the vast majority of Muricans. We have always taken the lazy way out of that critical *scrutinizing*.
Then too, we've always been a Classist society - with the good fortune that the uniquely qualified and beneficent founders, the authors of the clever checks&balances behaved with exemplary equanimity. They did not face the implications of slavery and recognize the rights of *all women* in defining citizenship.
Nobody's perfect, and considering how wise were their other deliberations - a sane few generations of successors would have addressed the omissions / avoided the insanity of not even a century later. (We'll elide the sorry behaviour of the Puritans et al towards the original owners of this huge real estate windfall - and whatever those savage acts might have predetermined, re the occupiers' future fortunes.)
But we didn't get another generation of that primal virtuosity, did we? We got more population, but of what subsequent quality? Especially after we killed off so many young / promising? in that bloodbath, harbinger of WW-I.
Did it work any better when One Job was enough? The little-woman stayed home (and the 2.2 well-dressed kids did not shoot other kids after or during school) etc. Of course that bucolic '50s image == WASPS only, here in the USA. Women finally got a vote only in *1920* == One Half of our population. Brown V. Board in '54. Cheney, Schwerner et al died in '64. MLK, RFK in '68. Pretty recent stuff re all that 'slavery' Bad juju.
Kicking & screaming - has been our record re correction of those original omissions. And we're still largely a bunch of racist xenophobes, though some numbers suggest a little %progress .. depending on which clan one is speaking from within.
But IF.. there is a 'window' and we are past it; say, there are just too many amidst the 280 million, today unable to meet the basic duties of citizenship and/or too disinterested to try? - then the entropy could only increase.
(And if Elimidate portrays a very large portion of the 18-25 yos? and Reality Tee Vee actually engages an even wider slice -- looks pretty bad for reversing the trend, to moi.)
Finally, if the various religious sects next are going to duel over Winner Take All, henceforth; the protections of minority views erased for hegemony by some mythical 50.1% - then it's a Corporate Theocracy, not just a Corporatocracy, though there may be less difference there than I suppose.
I agree with Mike that it's fair / not heretical or even rude to raise the question, just as we are about to commence a second dose of a secretive, idiosyncratic cabal -- whose original accession was 'clouded' at the most charitable, while a steady drumbeat of G\ufffdbbelsian propaganda has been the theme ever since they were assigned power by those 5 people. (We might.. have done another election; of course, we aren't Ukrainians)
Polarization appears now nearly complete, communication between the poles more improbable than, even during the Chicago police riots at the Demo convention in '68, following all those assassinations. Greed has never been higher on the Hit Parade.
So.. nope, I don't see any 'replacement Authoritarian' contrivance saving people too lazy/bumbling even to perform as citizens. Either. What I do see is - a Radical regime (antithesis of 'conservative'!!) more apt to use nukes if panicked even further, than any I've lived through or read about. (More likely than the USSR, when there was one.) They will do so for the same reason as most any radical/zealot would;
These have Faith that They Are Right, no matter what anyone in the world thinks - including half of *this* population. And growing?
Nobody talking, addressing obvious fuck-ups, admitting even that mistakes were possible (!) Just more dissembling and slogans about Winning Democracy with troops. Raise any issue: [Shrub] "I support out troops". Ummmmmm - never mind.
Brrrrr. Cold winter. No sign of a thaw.
Want Cosmic humor? Just heard: Repos want to set aside the Wash election for a new one. After a recount or two. Because they lost. This time. Love. It.
Wonder where they will stash the protesters at the Inauguration. This time. Will he be in a Bradley? Eggs should be no problem for that.
Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are convinced beyond doubt that they are right. Laurens van der Post, 1906 - 1996
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Post #190,216
1/14/05 3:45:19 PM
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Another non-sequitor
sort of... From Fates Worse Than Death by Kurt Vonnegut In the children's fable The White Deer, by the late American humorist James Thurber, the Royal Astronomer in a medieval court reports that all the stars are going out. What has really happened is that the astronomer has grown old and is going blind. That was Thurber's condition too, when he wrote his tale. He was making fun of a sort of old poop who imagined that life was ending not merely for himself but for the whole universe. Inspired by Thurber, then, I choose to call any old poop who writes a popular book saying that the world, or at least his own country, is done for, a 'Royal Astronomer' and his subject matter 'Royal Astronomy.' Since I myself have become an old poop at last, perhaps I, too, should write such a book. But it is hard for me to follow the standard formula for successful Royal Astronomy, a formula going back who knows how far, maybe to the invention of printing by the Chinese a couple of thousand years ago. The formula is, of course: 'Things aren't as good as they used to be. The young people don't know anything and don't want to know anything. We have entered a steep decline!' But have we? Back when I was a kid, lynchings of black people were reported almost every week, and always went unpunished. Apartheid was as sternly enforced in my hometown, which was Indianapolis, as it is in South Africa nowadays. Many great universities, including those in the Ivy League, rejected most of the Jews who applied for admission solely because of their Jewishness, and had virtually no Jews and absolutely no blacks, God knows, on their faculties. I am going to ask a question -- and President Reagan, please don't answer: Those were the good old days? When I was a kid during the Great Depression, when it was being demonstrated most painfully that prosperity was not a natural by-product of liberty, books by Royal Astronomers were as popular as they are today. They said, as most of them do today, that the country was falling apart because the young people were no longer required to read Plato and Aristotle and Marcus Aurelius and St. Augustine and Montaigne and the like, whose collective wisdom was the foundation of any decent and just and productive society. Back in the Great Depression, the Royal Astronomers used to say that a United States deprived of that wisdom was nothing but a United States of radio quiz shows and music straight out of the jungles of Darkest Africa. They say now that the same subtraction leaves the United States of nothing but television quiz shows and rock and roll, which leads, they say, inexorably to dementia. But I find uncritical respect for most works by great thinkers of long ago unpleasant, because they almost all accepted as natural and ordinary the belief that females and minority races and the poor were on earth to be uncomplaining, hardworking, respectful, and loyal servants of white males, who did the important thinking and exercised leadership. You're a good man. Watch your blood pressure. We love you and want to see you ranting for many years to come...
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #190,237
1/14/05 6:04:01 PM
1/14/05 6:06:58 PM
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Gotta dash.. get back to ya later, Danno :-)
(Hey.. I take NONE of this stuff seriously - remember? ..some of us see maya as maya.) What's confusing about That?
sat chit ananda, y'all -
<ob speelingnazi> sequitur as in Gaudeamus igitur cha cha cha Gotta report this to the IT-English CLO, you understand..
Edited by Ashton
Jan. 14, 2005, 06:06:58 PM EST
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Post #190,270
1/14/05 11:05:27 PM
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Thank you for sparing me
Ashton the grammarian... So I guess your saying mother maya?
Sorry for attributing attributes to you that are non-existential. Which takes us back to the a priori non-sequitur... Nescafe pas?
I'm going to the punitentiary for that last one. Greetings and salutations
Just a few thoughts, Putting descartes before des horses in South Bend,
Danno
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Post #190,271
1/14/05 11:07:32 PM
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*choke* ROFL!
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning, As hopeless as it seems in the middle, Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #190,285
1/15/05 5:15:43 AM
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Tis beyond my massive power
to save you - since you chose to live in Indiana. They haven't built the punitentiary that can recompile your jelloware -
(Ever run into anyone who knows a little ditty, Indiana We're Coming Home? My Gramma writ the words; they may be around here somewhere.)
Kurt always gets it right, of course. From the sublime to .. Was just watching Dr. Gene Scott en passant [80 yo energetic geezer + his 20-something wife warbling into the microphone] fulminating with his whiteboards full of Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek and God's Own Language.. What a trip - Certainty + gift for gab Gets Girls. Too.
Where did we go wrong? Was it - thinking that if you made colleges, accumulated enough words / cubic closest-packing - you needn't do any deeds (or refrain from doing certain ones)? Kept a lot off the streets, while it lasted.
Truth is: Sergei Nakariakov playing .. anything at all. Transcendently.
(I believe that substituting the sublime for the predictable daily weirdness post-Inaguration - will be the way to go. Who needs to Rapture-out when you can Rapture-in? That's my plan for the duration.)
Cheers, moi
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Post #190,217
1/14/05 3:51:56 PM
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..as Good ..or as Bad
I always got a smile out of Jimmy Carter's title for his book:
"A government as good as its people" (Now unavailable)
[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006CT06C/qid=1105735674/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-2605234-0523947?v=glance&s=books|http://www.amazon.co...?v=glance&s=books]
I wonder if he worried about the double entendre? We now have exactly that type of government.
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Post #190,182
1/14/05 12:16:08 PM
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non-sequitor
My Carlin daily calendar for Jan 12...
"I think I am, therefore I am. I think."
:-)
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #190,190
1/14/05 1:08:23 PM
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Moody Blues.
[link|http://www.kaibab.org/moodies/mxthresh.htm#1|http://www.kaibab.or...es/mxthresh.htm#1] First Man:
I think, I think I am, therefore I am, I think.
Establishment:
Of course you are my bright little star, I've miles and miles of files,
Pretty files of your forefather's fruit
and now to suit
our great computer,
You're magnetic ink.
First Man:
I'm more than that, I know I am, at least, I think I must be.
Inner Man:
There you go man, keep as cool as you can.
Face piles and piles of trials with smiles.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave
And keep on thinking free. Lovely to see you again, my friend.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #190,239
1/14/05 6:10:22 PM
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If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been
equipped with surreal ports?
The ridiculous way is sometimes also the best way that we have to think about things.
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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