The difference...

Post #189,728 by ben_tilly 1/11/05 7:29:34 AM Reply	The difference... I mean, heck, could you explain to me how the phenomenon of actually believing that some invisible supernatural creature goes around deciding -- or ought to go around deciding -- what happens to everyone in the world; how exactly is that not the same as clinical insanity? The clinically insane usually have beliefs that a bystander can easily prove to be wrong (your name is not being called on the radio). The religious have beliefs that may (or may not depending on your beliefs) seem ridiculous, but can't so readily be disproven. That is, the religious start with some odd conceptions, but their basic mental processing is generally (there are exceptions - some religious people are also insane) OK from there. And from their point of view the situation is reversed - they think that your conceptions are weird. See [link\|http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=379224\|http://www.perlmonks...pl?node_id=379224] for somewhat related commentary. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #189,742 by CRConrad 1/11/05 9:54:29 AM Reply	You rate that far too highly; out of some misplaced respect? Ben T... ...quotes me: I mean, heck, could you explain to me how the phenomenon of actually believing that some invisible supernatural creature goes around deciding -- or ought to go around deciding -- what happens to everyone in the world; how exactly is that not the same as clinical insanity? The clinically insane usually have beliefs that a bystander can easily prove to be wrong (your name is not being called on the radio). Actually, the specific phenomenon I had in mind when I wrote the above was, "The Voices In My Head Are Telling me To..." -- which is much more of an exact parallel not only in how difficult it is to disprove, but in the whole general outline of the phenomenon: Religious people don't need any radio to hear Ghod/Jesus/Allah/Whoever either. The religious have beliefs that may (or may not depending on your beliefs) seem ridiculous, but can't so readily be disproven. Their "God" is just another voice in someone's head; of course it can't be any more easily disproven than any other voice in someone's head... Or IOW, it's absence can't be any more easily proven than any other negative. And why should we have to "disprove" anything they say, in the first place? They are the ones that are making the preposterous proposition, so as far as I'm concerned, the burden of proof is on them. Or should we go around taking any gibbering certifiable whacko's "Voices" for facts, until disproven, too? That is, the religious start with some odd conceptions, but their basic mental processing is generally (there are exceptions - some religious people are also insane) OK from there. I'd say the "conceptions" you start with are even more "basic" than the mental processing you then apply to them, so for all I can see the sum total of their reasoning is definitely not "OK". And from their point of view the situation is reversed - they think that your conceptions are weird. Yeah, but then -- as per the above -- they are nuts, so who gives a fuck what they think? I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother) So why is his name Ward, and not Tilly? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #189,790 by ben_tilly 1/11/05 3:15:15 PM Reply	You haven't known many crazies, have you? The fact that someone claims to hear voices in their head doesn't mean anything. Heck, I hear voices in my head - they say whatever I want them to. (I sometimes mentally rehearse an interaction, and while rehearsing it, I am able to choose to "hear" the whole interaction play out however I want it to.) What marks someone as crazy is what the voices in their head say about the world. It doesn't tend to be subtle. And it does get in the way of their functioning. Let's compare, for instance, your average paranoid schizophrenic with Larry Wall, devout Christian. Both are somewhat odd. (Have you seen pictures of how Larry dresses?) But the religious person is able to function in the world, talk at length making some sort of sense, can navigate where he wants to, and generally seems to be a fairly competent human being. Regardless of whether you or I agrees with his beliefs. By contrast paranoid schizophrenics tend to wind up believing that they have to save the world. In the USA that tends to mean either they have a mission to kill the US president or to blow up the UN. Of the ones who try to blow up the UN, most do not manage to exit the train station without being taken into custody. (They draw attention with their muttering, confusion, and inability to conduct a coherent conversation.) Now those are extreme examples, but the principle holds. Crazy people tend to be pretty obviously non-functional in society. Religious people tend to get along about as well as non-religious people. While I disagree with both groups, having dealt with members of both, it is pretty easy to recognize the difference. Cheers, Ben PS I was born a Ward as well. My mother changed our names. He chose to change his back for personal reasons. I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #189,851 by tuberculosis 1/11/05 7:01:58 PM Reply	Crazy is as crazy does By contrast paranoid schizophrenics tend to wind up believing that they have to save the world. In the USA that tends to mean either they have a mission to kill the US president or to blow up the UN. The world certainly does look more and more like it needs saving. And killing the president does seem like an important step in the process. Not sure about the UN. Am I crazy? Or the only sane one left? "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #189,854 by inthane-chan 1/11/05 7:03:57 PM Reply	That's not something I'd say on the web these days.
Post #189,855 by daemon 1/11/05 7:04:08 PM Reply	only useful if he wont leave Jan 2009 you really want cheney without SOME pushback? the republic will recover, we lived thru lincoln and nixon, we will survive Bush regards, daemon that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE clearwater highschool marching band [link\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]
Post #189,942 by tuberculosis 1/12/05 1:36:53 PM Reply	Just a step Obviously you can't stop there. "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #189,837 by daemon 1/11/05 6:06:46 PM Reply	Or should we go around taking any gibbering certifiable..... Or should we go around taking any gibbering certifiable whacko's "Voices" for facts, until disproven, too? why not if it doesnt cost you anything? regards, daemon that way too many Iraqis conceived of free society as little more than a mosh pit with grenades. ANDISHEH NOURAEE clearwater highschool marching band [link\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/\|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]

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