As always, it IS a matter of 'scale'. I hoped we might address the assumptions of the present model and the underlying myths behind it - rather than tinkering with a few differential equations, over some 2% outcomes. Guess not. I perceive a caste system; you appear to maintain it is ~ a Meritocracy. If we can't even settle that? No point in a tinkering expedition.

In scale then. Some imagine that it is God's Will\ufffd which does / shall determine one's caste. (Formally so, in the Eastern religions which derived from the larger ideas there - which were not about 'religious organizations' at all!) Here we (well .. many) do not call it 'caste', but accept from our Puritan roots, that the now massive inequalities occur because:

Maybe I didn't Work hard enough? (very Puritan that! - pure essence). Maybe I am not Worthy-enough? (er ditto). What is the Murican Dream but.. the icon for expression that, Providence shall perhaps find *me* Worthy .. and make me one of the rilly-Rich Few, too? What else is this, than the Lottery view of it all? (umm notice how those Get Rich Quick chimeras have received the Imprimatur of State-sponsorship nowadays?)

Vegas as Puritan Nirvana perhaps? 'Chance' as reward for my Worthiness! [Thanks !! God]

Simply, how can one divorce the prevailing religious environment from its consequence: reduced expectations? Manna comes from Heaven. So do not complain about the folk that make a million times your hourly wage! To do so is to commit heresy and stir up unrest among the docile resigned. So let's evoke the shibboleths of olde - when a Question arises about: the distribution of an entire Nation's wealth / The Emperor's perpetually New clothes?

Let's call all such Questions - 'Communist' at base ('Socialism' we dasn't mention often; we Love our welfare state but we are really Individualists! in it for what we can get. Except for a couple hours on Sundays, (Saturdays for some?)) Either/or - ya gotta love simplistic .. or leave it.

Comfort, security - but the illusion of Free Enterprise! Hey! ya could run for President on that platform. (And not without it)

Illusions of a 'meritocracy' out of the way - given the irrelevance of hard (even educated, *skillful) work being rewarded proportionately: we are left, on this scale where sweet Reason can disclose the overview at a glance, and a few years living here.

* look no further than *here* for some stats - Sys Analyst on Help Desk?

But at the engineering scale, the CPA level - bizness as usual is described with the pseudo precision of math formulae taken to n-digits, the solemnity of an OT Prophet creating new punishments for new heresies:

~Do Not Question the Wonderfulness of Our God-arranged System! Except.. reverently as in, GreatestCountryinnaWorld .. you crypto-Pinko scum (! or ? or :-\ufffd depending on context). Recurrent theme.

Cognitive dissonance occurs when we examine at the highest scale, the Popular God's essays on greed; compare that to the Popular sloganeering President of the '80s (and his take on the aforementioned greed thing), then observe the mentioned State govt's recent decisions about formal Lotteries (as opposed to the ongoing national bizness Lottery described). Inconsistency in thought, creed, deed, action: what do we call a society labouring.. under such delusional myths and their shibboleths?

Sorry, Beep - it is not I who have come to sell snakeoil in new bottles. Nor is it I, trying to become comfortable on the sharp horns of a dilemma. If ya don't like my similes: it isn't I who am desperately trying to reassure all that, everything is running smoothly according to God's Will and a quite nicely functioning er Meritocracy.

I can see that your enthusiasm for bringing your vast Econ knowledge (of the details at engineering level) to bear upon reform - is sadly lacking. One might even say, is more an enthusiastic opposition to any such project. "Prove It" thy motto. Oh.. the Humanity..

S'OK BeeP. One does not take to an Acolyte, one's questions about the Curia dining high on the hog - while those with questions are burned on pyres (for the good of their immortal souls, natch). That I see - just wasn't er logical. My error, that.

Umm BTW: diverting to "how far we've come" over previous ordinary bestial behavior du jour; even comparing our Grossness of National Product to other countries' - above the starvation level - is not a reason for failing to even address our root problems and their underlying fallacies: it's just another excuse to evade acting on the obvious, when a one is personally comfortable enough - not to care.

After all - at some point in history, the principle is seen to have changed from survival of the fittest? to, survival of the sneakiest predator upon his own tribe. Stay comfy then - but your cover is blown :-\ufffd

I withdraw the gauntlet cast. Perhaps can reintroduce it a bit later: when, say, unemployment levels (even the cynical, pseudo- undercounts of the Econ model) reach ~10% ? and the combined net-worths of Billy and the next 4 after him: reaches a $Trillion? Then we can have another little chat about umm Models and cui bono. Who Profits?

Perhaps an unemployed Economist will land on zIWE by then - who knows ? Valhallas are only a wish-list, never attainable by homo-saps. But to presume one is IN one already - is the 'conservation' of simple Error made into Dogma. IMhO.



Cheers,

Ashton, Reformed.

Everything is really Kewl! Honest!
HTF could I have *missed that* ?
So ashamed for asking :[

I must remember my caste.
I must remember my caste.
I must .. Zzzzzzzz

It seems we are nowhere close to agreeing upon the 'degree of brokenness' of the system; perhaps not even upon - a few specifics of the underlying myths which justifed an earlier form (?) As to -

What descriptor would you attach to the "model" of "citizen control of
the entire environment". Strictly in the theoretical sense...I believe
that to be a pretty concise definition of communism. Am I incorrect?

I apologize if you inferred that I was accusing you personally, of dismissal of criticisms of the present models -as simplistic 'Communism'- though I believe that simplicity remains the most common buffer against ever seriously reassessing the current state of the model.

IMO 'Communism' has never been remotely possible as a system of Government (that seems almost an oxymoron of the basic tenets ~ from each according to ability, to each according to needs). I deem it a Large Idea, conceivable at some future state of growth of the species. It could only ever operate where the delusions about power, wealth - as these apply or do not, to a (fulfilling? ___) life - had been individually dealt with as the chimeras they are. Not 'us'. Not in any foreseeable.

Yes, you acknowledge various broken details, after these are periodically pointed out by others. (I can't recall now if the 'bogus' unemployed, underemployed calculations are anything you've agreed about?) Certainly the system has yet to recognize much: those currently 'unemployable' for both external and personal reasons - lumped together under 'welfare', (whatever the individual desire to find work that anyone could live from). The plight of the Temp workers does not even appear to be on the long agenda for attention. Bets on the direction of that trend? Medicine for profit? Jails for profit? Are those even in the model?

I have few ideas - none new - for how Muricans might kill the incestuous relationship among PACs, Corps and paid legislators - nor even, how one alters rules such that: any legislator must devote a huge proportion of time towards raising funds for reelelection. So much for efficiency on other minor matters, like 'governing'.

Until the living conditions worsen, I also see no Grand process via which relatively distracted, ineffectual 'consumers' could force so large a change in quality of thinking about the models. The usual rubric is: to somehow accomplish gradual detail reform, leading to a change in quality (Mr. Kuhn IIRC).

But we haven't even decided yet - whether the idea of, 'the environment' is an issue describing a real concern (or for that matter: even very well defined what that word might mean re survival). It's still easily dismissed with Tree-Hugger derision as YAN Red Herring - let's get on with making money.

As I see it, if such basic issues as are supposed to set the rules for making models that work (?) are not yet even being raised, not even by the current model-makers: of what use is proposing a few minor tinkerings?

I see signs everywhere of what Corporate tinkering has produced: 'production', ownership of the tangible and control over much of the intangible - the hours of the day. Perhaps nobody else wants the responsibility. What with a new war and such..

Yer prolly right, BeeP - it's difficult to fault a system with such order and predictability. It might cause disorder.

I wouldn't want to do that.


Ashton