Couldn't say

Post #18,771 by Steven A S 11/19/01 11:40:46 AM Reply	Couldn't say Obviously I'm not the one to judge whether their justice system is fair or not. But we can't expect them to just turn around and adopt our criminal justice system either. Change has to be gradual, and will have to be no matter who takes over leadership of the country. ~~~)-Steven---- "I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..." General George S. Patton
Post #18,852 by screamer 11/19/01 5:25:05 PM Reply	Personal Observation when I was on TDY in Turkey. A child (probably no more than 10) was grabbed in the public square and hung upside down in a device that was reminiscient of a stockade. Two older men then proceeded to beat his feet with switches until they bled (actually, long after they were bleeding). His feet swelled up to about twice normal size and were the deepest purple color that I can remember seeing. This made a deep and lasting (it has been over 18 years ago) on me. I was escorted by an MP back to the barracks as I started to try and open the device and free the boy. They told me that we were absolutely not to interfere with local customs. It was none of our concern. I'm sorry, but there is nothing that I can think of this boy did (he stole a fish at market, by the way) that justified this. And you know what... to this day I feel guilty that I didn't do more to try and help. The reason I'm chiming in is your statement, "I'm not one to judge their justice system..." Well, if you aren't going to take the "risk", I will. Yes, change will have to be gradual, but it must occur. It is implicit that any government that we sanction after we defeat them not suck. If it does, we will be inviting more trouble. There is nothing in the Koran that would forbid a peaceful and just society being formed in the new Afghanistan. As the conqueror, we are entitled to dictate human rights be observed in their country from now on. We can either do this or just pick up and go home and hope... We've done it before. I guess I'd like for you to define gradual. It would help my comfort level. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #18,893 by Steven A S 11/19/01 10:07:28 PM Reply	Clarification When I said "I'm not [the] one to judge their justice system", I meant because I didn't have enough information to judge it. I don't know at what point they start the floggings, etc that was being asked. It's easy to draw opinions about the conditions based on a simple article, but it takes a lot more facts to make hard fast decisions that affect millions. The sight you saw in Turkey was awful, but if it were that easy to change, it already would have been. But keep making the noise, if for no other reason than to ensure that they don't lose track of the goal. ~~~)-Steven---- "I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..." General George S. Patton
Post #18,927 by jbrabeck 11/20/01 7:50:50 AM Reply	Sinop?
Post #18,971 by screamer 11/20/01 1:26:14 PM Reply	Yep... Was geographically significant... with it's proximity to Odessa... Was an EWSIGINT Russian 98G in a past life. A lot of us got to go to Sinop and Wobeck and Berlin for TDY. Were you there? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #18,988 by Brandioch 11/20/01 2:24:36 PM Reply	Cool. I did Berlin before the wall came down. We needed all kinds of special clearances. Not to mention the trip in the train with the windows covered.
Post #19,015 by screamer 11/20/01 5:13:57 PM Reply	Duty trains rocked... I was hassled one time at Magdeburg (I believe) and it kind of ruined Berlin for me. The zoo was cool, as well as Kudam (think it was actually Kurfursterdam?) Strasse. I did like Checkpoint Charlie. Does anyone know if there is still a museum there? What's interesting for me now is if I will ever be able to explain the tension that existed there before the wall came down to my kids... Were you in the service? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #19,019 by Brandioch 11/20/01 5:48:25 PM Reply	Yep. 7 years in the army.
Post #19,116 by screamer 11/21/01 11:35:38 AM Reply	Kewl... I may have made it 7 years were it not for my distaste for wearing green ;-) I was a four and out, wouldn't do it any other way... Miss the people, hated the organization. I have a nephew that asked me if he she join. I didn't know what to tell him. It helped me out - discipline, learning to work in teams, college tuition - but I had trouble given him a solid endorsement... I have to admit, that when September 11 first happened, I wanted to join back... I'm too old now, but I felt then and still feel now that what is going on in Afghanistan is important now and has very long range implications for the stability of "anti-war" in the 21'st century. As a race, I have always hoped that we could get beyond religion and skin color and nationalities to the core of our human existence. It's amazing the similiarity between all members of the human experience. It's also amazing how we tend to exagerate the differences... Babbling now, but thank you for your service to the USA. As corny as that phrase sounds, I mean it sincerely and wish I heard it more myself... Just a few thoughts, Dan "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #19,136 by Brandioch 11/21/01 1:13:51 PM Reply	I'd never recommend it. The total stupidity wasn't worth it. That's why I did 7 years. I thought it would get better as I moved up. I made E-6 in four years. It never got better. I just got to see the stupidity start and watch it roll.
Post #19,153 by jbrabeck 11/21/01 2:24:09 PM Reply	But I would... To those who haven't a clue about what they want to do with their life. Four and out (if they have gotten a clue). Give them time to mature, get some job training, experience a different way of life, maybe different culture and a chance to pick up some college credits and a chunk of change to pay for college. But not for those who have their life planned. I went cuz I had to go. Draft number came up, student deferment was revoked (didn't want to be a student...), so it was either enlist for 3 with an option of duty and training OR be drafted for 2 and go to 'Nam. Took the 3. Ended up in Germany. Found computers. Ended up in charge of computer operations for the Finance Center in Europe. But when the Army decided that after 10 years, a Finance NCO (E6) should be in charge of the finance records and not the computers, I decided my time was up, got out and finished in the Reserves as a 1SG/MSG. It's not the life for everyone, but I'd recommend it. And I have suggested to my oldest daughter that she consider it. She has no idea of what she wants to do. So instead of wasting time in college now, do some military time, grow up and then go to college and enjoy life. [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]
Post #19,062 by CRConrad 11/20/01 10:07:06 PM Reply	Strolled around Magdeburg at age 12 or 13; no hassles then.. ...but later on, when I was older, there were. IIRC. It's "Kurfürstendamm", without any 'Strasse', BTW. From "Kur-fürst", "Prince Elector" -- 'Fürst' (cf 'first') is 'Prince', and 'kur-' is from "zu küren", "to select" or "to declare"; it refers to one of the nine(?) minor-monarchs who got to vote on "electing" the next Emperor. Phuck knows where '-damm' comes from. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #19,110 by screamer 11/21/01 11:22:03 AM Reply	Thank you for the info... Herr, er, ummm... Sir tour guide... Of course I was not exactly welcome given the situation that I was in. My Grandfather on my mother's side was from Potsdam and my grandfather and grandmother on my father's side were from Dresden. I couldn't get to Potsdam or Dresden in the old configuration but have been planning a trip back. It's been put on hold for a few more years as a result of my talliwacker (wife is 5 months pregnant with our second child). I really miss Deutschland and, although I'm American born and raised, I still feel a strong kinship with the Fatherland as a result of my heritage. In any event, I would like to get back to Berlin to give it another try. It is a unique city and one of the world's hidden treasures. I spent most of my 3 years of duty in Frankenland and Bavaria, which are some of the world's better known treasures. I still have a few friends that I keep in touch with and they keep me abreast of what's up in Wurzurg and Frankfurt. I'm waxing nostalgic now with nothing to say, so I appreciate your indulgence to this point. Do you get back home much? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #19,125 by CRConrad 11/21/01 12:12:13 PM Reply	You're welcome. Heck no, I get back all too rarely. Last time I went was, uhm... 1992, -93 or -94? Can't remember -- anyway, it was for my maternal grandfather's birthday, his eightieth it must have been. He died a few weeks ago -- he'd been ailing for years, my Mom was down there helping look after him all summer -- but for several individually petty but altogether nonetheless valid reasons, I couldn't go to the funeral. :-( This is all down in Joe B's erstwhile neck of the woods, BTW: My home town, Tübingen, is on the Neckar just like Heidelberg. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #19,170 by screamer 11/21/01 4:17:38 PM Reply	My condolences... I'm sorry to hear about your grandfather. I'm also sorry that you don't get to go back to your hometown much. I don't either. I think I mentioned to you a few years ago that Heidleberg is a beautiful place. I also would like to go back to Rothenberg (burg?) am der Tauber? as well. I loved the architecture and general aesthetics of Bamburg as well... Hated rauchbier however... (what kind of sick mind came up with that?) But I digress... This all, of course, has nothing to do with the War on Terror... so I'm gonna stop for now. Tomorrow is the big Thanksgiving holiday for us Merrykins (Ashton?) so I've gotta hit the road soon and won't be able to check back to forums until next Monday. Eat a turkey sandwich in solidarity with your American brothers... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #19,089 by jbrabeck 11/21/01 8:01:18 AM Reply	I was there Back in mid 70's. 73C. Had to inspect the finance office, count the cash and all that. Only there for a week. Not allowed to leave the post. Flew in on the mail plane from Instanbul 'cause flight agent has used wrong season schedule. Stationed in Heidelberg. Stayed in Germany for 10 (10/73-01/83) years, until Army decided that I needed a new duty location... Got out and then finished my 20 in the Reserves. Many fond memories... [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]
Post #19,121 by screamer 11/21/01 11:45:29 AM Reply	Fond memories here too... and an amazing coincidence in the timing of this thread and my personal life. A bunch of old DLI'ers (Defense Language Institute, Monterey, CA) having been looking me up and sending me email. They are trying to plan a reunion. We're all over the country now... I was only there (Germany) for about 3 years and stationed in Wurzburg with the 103'rd MI BN (assigned to 3rd Infantry Division). We were all over the map in those days... It's hard to explain the cold war now, but it sure seemed important at the time. Even then, though, I thought that the Russians were really our allies (as we have always fought WITH them) and couldn't understand why our paranoia (both of our countries) was so intense. Thankfully, this has turned out to be a true observation. Thank you for your service to our country. I know what that means. The personal hardship, the dedication, the insanity ;-) . Just a few thoughts, Dan "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones
Post #19,148 by jbrabeck 11/21/01 2:10:11 PM Reply	When were you in Wurzburg? I landed there on Oct 20, 1972. Went to H'berg in '74. Worked in G4. AJ then SGT. Got stuck with all the details that required an NCO (I was the most junior) or an EM (I was most experienced) Played in ReForGer. On call the night a F4, iirc, failed to pull up on a simulated strafing run of an APC Armored Personnel Carrier (with troops). Supply officer was first on scene, and he only had the G4 freq. I had to wake up everyone at 0500 to say we had an incident... Orange forces kicked ass...! (Course it was reported that the Blue forces won. For the uninformed... The blue forces were the reenforcement troops flying over from the US. The orange were some of the forces already in Germany who had to play "bad guys".) Lived in Leighton barracks. On CP the night there was a "race" riot on post. Was to have been cruising the town, looking for drunks (CP=Courtesy Patrol - pick up the drunks and return them to the barracks before the MPs were called). Jeep broke down so ended up on walking patrol of the Kasern (post). My partner and I were actually caught right in the middle when the fight/riot broke out... We spent two days being interrogated by MP, JAG, and IG. 7 day war... Waiting on flight line for load and go order... Being issued live ammo while on guard duty... Middle of the night alerts... Being young, no cares and no worries... :) [link\|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net\|Joe]
Post #19,168 by screamer 11/21/01 4:07:33 PM Reply	From '81 to '84.... Specialist then SGT then PFC :-) ... Oh well... I lived in Leighton as well. We had the building across from the bowling alley/library/gym/snack bar until the new ones were built in '83/'84... I miss Wurzburg. I never had anything quite so exciting as a race riot, but my friends and I sure liked to go to a little gasthaus nearby (Lugi's, I believe) and Pizeria Volcano and get loaded. There would be mini "riots" on the way back between us drunks... Well, it's a small world after all... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "I'll tip my hat to the new constitution, take a bow for the new revolution, smile and grin at the change all around, pick up my guitar and play, just like yesterday..." P. Townshend "Nietzsche has an S in it" Celina Jones

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