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New The postmodernist dodge rides again!
Ultimately, how can we prove anything to someone who doesn't want to believe? But what's that, you say? The evil military judges don't want to believe I'm a citizen? And no one can force them to acknowlege the evidence?

Carry that through to the logical conclusion, if you dare. If people really could get away with that sort of thing, then why what incredible fluke have we managed to have any civil rights at all lo these two centuries, while the military was in existence?

Think about it. There have always been courts martial for soldiers. "But I'm not a soldier!" "You are if we say you are! And you're out of uniform, soldier!" Why haven't we had a military dictatorship all this time?

Could it be that our Constitution works a little better than some paranoid types are willing to allow? I've always been a bit distrustful of the government as a matter of principle, and I still am. But even I won't go this far. It's just not reconcileable with reality.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
New Marlowe...I hope you're right.

Ultimately, how can we prove anything to someone who doesn't want to believe?


Ever have to work with a contract? (I just had some work done on my house.) Forget what people say, is it in writing? Have them define EXACTLY what they'll accept as "proof".

Believe it or not, there's a LOT of Judicial stuff that covers exactly this - what is proof and what isn't and what is admissiable and what isn't.

My question was fair. Are the military courts going to use the same rules as the civilians? If they aren't, what rules are they going to use?


Carry that through to the logical conclusion, if you dare. If people really could get away with that sort of thing, then why what incredible fluke have we managed to have any civil rights at all lo these two centuries, while the military was in existence?


Mind you - I'm not bashing the military, although you are claiming that I am. The problem is the same irregardless of whether or not the military or some other body was doing the action.

That said, are you HONESTLY attempting to claim that there haven't been ANY civil rights violations/problems in the last two centuries?


Think about it. There have always been courts martial for soldiers. "But I'm not a soldier!" "You are if we say you are! And you'rE out of uniform, soldier!" Why haven't we had a military dictatorship all this time?

Could it be that our Constitution works a little better than some paranoid types are willing to allow? I've always been a bit distrustful of the government as a matter of principle, and I still am. But even I won't go this far. It's just not reconcileable with reality.


Our Constitution works far better than most people are willing to allow, including our President. The adherence to it, imo, is what has prevented your "military dictatorship".

However, I'm not suggesting that the military is going to suddenly take over if we start allowing military tribunal. (I do believe it's another step on a very slippery slope, however.)

I am (also) suggesting, however, that some poor slob is going to be caught by this who is a civilian. Military trials don't apply the same rules and hearsay and circumstantial evidence are both allowed. That poor bastard is gonna be toast.

I remember talking with an instructor that was from Chile. He was very proud of his country and was talking about how they were a democracy and had elections. He then pointed out that in a country where he would never thought it would happen, they ended up with a military dictatorship.

I hope your right Marlowe.

[link|http://computers.sympatico.ca/news/stories/0,1856,7,00/0,1572,48443-7,00.html| Interesting link ]
New I like that link.
[link|http://computers.sympatico.ca/news/stories/0,1856,7,00/0,1572,48443-7,00.html|Nothing like historical perspective].

Just to clear things up, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I was arguing a point against its opposite. To that end, I address a hypothetical opponent as a rhetorical device. One does not always use the second person literally, ex: "You lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas" is not a comment on the hygeine of the person being spoken to.

[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
New Uh... Look a bit up-thread, to...
Marlowe:
Carry that through to the logical conclusion, if you dare. If people really could get away with that sort of thing, then why what incredible fluke have we managed to have any civil rights at all lo these two centuries, while the military was in existence?
...to what this thread was all about, and you'll find your answer to that:

Because for most of those two centuries, the military didn't get to run any secret courts, perhaps?
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
     War is hell (on your civil liberties) - (Silverlock) - (32)
         I can't tell yet whether - (Ashton) - (1)
             The scarier. - (Steve Lowe)
         Hell on whose civil liberties? - (marlowe) - (23)
             Let's say you're Arab-looking US-citiz. Someone sez ___. -NT - (Ashton) - (15)
                 Let's say you're grasping at straws. - (marlowe) - (14)
                     Let's say you're too young to *remember* HUAC, SISS. -NT - (Ashton) - (1)
                         I haven't forgotten all that. Nor have I forgotten... - (marlowe)
                     Alternative to what? - (Brandioch) - (11)
                         Oh, please. - (marlowe) - (10)
                             No, wait a minute. - (Ric Locke) - (5)
                                 Incorrect assumption. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                     [Completely OT]I might have to take you up on that... - (inthane-chan) - (2)
                                         Sure. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                             E-mail me. - (inthane-chan)
                                     No challenges here - (Ric Locke)
                             They didn't get a fair trial? - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                 You deliberately misunderstand, because you know you've lost - (marlowe) - (2)
                                     Maybe you have a problem understanding me? - (Brandioch)
                                     Ah.. I begin to understand your larger problem. - (Ashton)
             But the question is... - (Simon_Jester) - (4)
                 The postmodernist dodge rides again! - (marlowe) - (3)
                     Marlowe...I hope you're right. - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                         I like that link. - (marlowe)
                     Uh... Look a bit up-thread, to... - (CRConrad)
             Way to miss the point. - (Silverlock)
             Q: Hell on whose civil liberties? A: Mine - (neelk)
         the fear factor - (andread) - (2)
             "Close enough for government work". In Ashcroft-2001 Times. -NT - (Ashton)
             Damn. I actually agree with you on something. - (Brandioch)
         Another article. - (Brandioch) - (2)
             Where does Safire lie on the political scale? - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                 He was one of Nixon's speech writers. - (Another Scott)

The namespace is ... large. And a dictionary attack against a ... large namespace is ... large and then some.
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