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New I'm feeling safer already
It seems that retired Army General Patrick M. Hughes, formerly of the Defense Intelligence Agency and now the top intelligence official at the Department of Homeland Security, knows what you need and don't need better than you do. For example, one thing you don't need is the fourth amendment:
\ufffdSet aside what the mass of people think. Some things are so bad for them that you cannot allow them to have them. One of them is war in the context of terrorism in the United States,\ufffd Hughes said, according to a transcript obtained by CQ Homeland Security.

\ufffdTherefore, we have to abridge individual rights, change the societal conditions, and act in ways that heretofore were not in accordance with our values and traditions, like giving a police officer or security official the right to search you without a judicial finding of probable cause,\ufffd said Hughes.

\ufffdThings are changing, and this change is happening because things can be brought to us that we cannot afford to absorb. We can\ufffdt deal with them, so we\ufffdre going to reach out and do something ahead of time to preclude them.

\ufffdIs that going to change your lives?\ufffd Hughes asked rhetorically. \ufffdIt already has.\ufffd
[link|http://www.cq.com/corp/show.do?page=crawford/20041027_homeland|source]

That Bill of Rights shit is like, so-o-o eighteenth century.

cordially,
The Constitution: it's obsolete. Get over it.
New Serious question...
Why should the fourth amendment be any different the others? We gave up (never really had) true freedom of speech many years ago. The right to keep and bear arms (up to and including LAW weapons/man portable nukes?), life liberty AND property (unless you are a drug dealer)... $20 dollars for a jury???... What constitutes "excessive bail"? etc...

So let's see:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Going back to your original premise, long before Homeland Security began "further" eroding the fourth, the issue of drunk driving and fruit fly checkpoints immediately comes to mind. Is data on my hard disk that is hacked into by someone on the internet not messing with my "papers and effects"? How about the FBI's ability to listen in on my conversations and read my email? In any case, we have "probable cause" to suspect that any muslim living in this country is a terrorist - just as much as anyone driving after 1:00 am is a drunk.

Going even further, I would say that I absolutely agree that the eighteenth century shit is in serious need of re-write on all counts. Wouldn't you?

I'm pointing my medium range ICBM (hey, it's an arm) in your general direction awaiting your reply. :-)
Just a few thoughts,

Danno
New Is there a Twelve-Step for Boolean addiction?
Sure, Danno..

Let's see if I've got the commutative (or is it recursive or just disbursive?) 'logic' down Pat. or Mike. --

A) Because there have been erosions of the 'basic idea' through sloth, ennui, mesmerizing consumerism as a substitute-for-Life Way-of-Liff ..and just plain techno ""advances"" (making the breach soo much easier than the observance)

THEN

B) Some parts of the aim have been eroded, tarnished, subverted. And we have Proof!

ERGO

Screw. It. If we can't (won't | don't care | What's the "Fourth Amendment?") have it All - let's just become obedient Corporate Subjects, watch Tee Vee and go {further} to seed, Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition.

cha cha er cha.



Really Danno, the Jesuit influence and the Koolaid piped throughout the entire State of Indiana and your environs - appears to have further polluted the axons and completely erased all recollection of there ever having been a Ben Franklin or Tom Paine - or the concept of eternal vigilance.

Take two Viox\ufffd and a carafe of Faith in the White House \ufffd '04 and call me in the Mourning in American Pie \ufffd l\ufffd Mode-o-dayum ummm - - y'hear?



It is now absolutely necessary to Arm Bears.. if the poor fuckers are to have any slightest chance of surviving US, while awaiting our quadruped successor-suckers.
New Not quite that easy, Bucko...
See, its rcarwhateverthefuck that keeps posting boolean Democratic party induced drool everywhere (and you too, for that matter), guised as some sort of intelligent discourse. Think I've never worked in academia, bucko? I know shit when I smell it. And you know damn well that I am not a boolean thinker... Shit, I'm not even logical most of the time. But you can think of me as your election year boolean conscience...

In any event, the post I made was a kind of a "where in the fuck have you been for the last 35 years?". Like you were so kind to remind everyone - ETERNAL VIGILANCE. It's amazing how many people have spontaneous "gestalts" during election years that seem to mysteriously vanish as soon as the votes are counted. I mean it pisses off those who have been railing on about it for years and years. I still give to the ACLU... Do you? Maybe I'm wrong here?... Do you still not understand or do you wish to taunt me some more with the jesuit rot?


I think I mentioned how I feel about election years...

Keep the faith, Kerry butt boy.
Just a few thoughts,

Danno
New Checking in a bit late
Now now, danwhateverthe fuck; you protest not to be Boolean-challenged, then leap to the conclusion that - fervent opposition to a patently corrupt bunch of nutters on a crusade directed by Gawd: means you're a 'Democrat Party apparatchik'. Thus, must 'believe' ___. And especially ____! if not __.

Shit, next you'll say that opposition to this cabal - means you're a Liberal (because caballists say *they* are/were some sort of mondo degenerated Conservative). That should slogan-off any remaining ground.

My vigilance has been alive and healthy since McCarthy - live on Tee Vee and getting his head handed to him by Welch. Since then, I've become increasingly aware of how this One Party with Two Right Wings soap mocks language so effectively that there really is no possibility of political debate, outside of protected compounds, until after blood happens.

Vigilance generally though, is a poor 43rd.. somewhere after concerns about leather-seat colors in the new UAV.

As the wealth concentrates further, the low end unravels deeper and in exciting new ways.. and the utterly subservient 'congress' hunkers down to resist all efforts to induce $election reform, by all means available: I expect to see the blood, right here in River City.. long before any actual sane language might someday have a 'prayer' (as they say). Wow - that'd be a First! in my experience anyway.




No point in debating with you ~ just How-fucked IS the cabal? If that was the question.
If I can't recognize a rerun of '30s bafflegab, jingoism and unprecedented massive lies by now - you fucking well aren't going to teach me how, nor convince me that "this has just been another ordinary, sorta confused-but-Sincere Murican 'administration'" cha cha. Not a Chance.

But then -- maybe we'll see how it went -- by 11-5? 11-12? 12-2? .. 2005?
Either way and whoever 'wins', you and offspring will be paying for this past 4 years 'til well past their voting age, if not their retirement age, too (?)
If there is 'retirement' under capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich? we're apt to find out soon.

Ta ta


Edit: Added 50% to $ACLU this year and last, a tad more than usual to CDI (Center for Defense Info.) et alia. One 'affords' with scale and relativity, thus some deprivation - or remains a cheapskate piker for life. Only Art can save us next.

Oh.. and - if you see no vast ergo significant difference in the mental acuity of Shrub/Kerry, let alone in their 'emotional-age grouping' -- probably most words in support of that position, will fail. Too.

Betcha still haven't experienced Manfred, o slothful One ;-)


!-Boolean doesn't seem to offer many automatic guarantees of sentience, either -
How shall we slay the culture of euphemism, before it metastasizes?

er what IS.. the umm 'opposite' of 'opposite-games' BTW - analog?
Expand Edited by Ashton Nov. 1, 2004, 10:55:51 PM EST
New OT: What part of Indiana are you in?
I'm in the NE.
bcnu,
Mikem

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell
New Does that mean...
... that you're getting on the IL/IN/MI/OH Beep train next year?
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Re: OT: What part of Indiana are you in?
Northwest. South Bend area. I am going through the northeast section tomorrow morning on the way to Toledo, OH. Are you in Ft Wayne or one of the smaller towns along the way? Let me know if you'd like to get together some time. I like Ft. Wayne as there are not horse tracks in this damned uncivilized area of the state. I'm actually pretty easy going in person. We share an interest in Russia/Soviet Union, history and probably beer... Let me know and I'll get with you offline.
Just a few thoughts,

Danno
New Wolcottville.
I know, you've never heard of it. South of Lagrange (which is larger, but still tiny). I work in Fort Wayne near Smith Field. Mail to mike dot moffitt at mchsi dot com. ;0)
bcnu,
Mikem

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell
New Re: Serious question...
I suppose I ought to have checked back here a few days back, but everything's been so...exciting elsewhere that I haven't been giving zIWT the meticulous scrutiny it deserves. My bad.

Obviously the erosion of civil liberties we have seen during the junta's romp is not something that has sprung full-grown from John Ashcroft's low and furrowed brow. The process has been moving by fits and starts, with infrequent reverses but overall tending toward a dystopic police state ideal, since before I was born 52 years ago, and this progress was not noticeably retarded during the Clinton administration. The acceleration in the process that we've seen since the coup is, however, unprecedented in my experience, as is the naked avowal of that Orwellian objective by high officials.

For the rest...where have I been for the last 35 years? Sentient. What about you, chuckles? Where were you in 72? As to "Democratic party induced drool," you swallow your spittle, you fearless iconoclast, and I'll swallow mine. Bon appetit.

[edit: a before e except after thee]
Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?
Expand Edited by rcareaga Nov. 1, 2004, 09:52:51 PM EST
New fair enough...
"</spittle>"

Yumm... Sorry my man, but you see, I have spent two successive weekends in a "swing state". I'm feeling a bit bipola...err binary (yes, Ashton, I said it). It's hard not to be (bi)polarized/lobotomized by the constant nattering and carping about nuisances in style that the one party system keeps spitting up every four years or so. That said, the Patriot Act sucks and I might even go along with the rate of acceleration hypothesis you have posed. But this is still a product of the "war on ourselves" that we have become so accustomed to fighting. Remember the "war on drugs" and all the civil liberties that were lost in that one? Remember the war on poverty and the war on cigarettes and the war on obesity and the war on American employees ad infinitum. To me, they are one long "war on Americans civil liberties". Can you believe that in 2004 that a person can still be put in jail for smoking a joint? In 1972 that would have been absurd to me.

And yes, I think I understand the 1972 analogy. Do you know that Nixon actually kissed me on the forehead during a whistlestop tour of Ohio in '68? I was 7 years old and it made the front page of the local newspaper. I thought he was a great man - the president of the United States... kissed me. Of course, we all know the rest of the story. :-O Thinking about it, maybe that was when I lost interest in politicians?

But I digress. Back to the civil liberties thingy. We are a group that is easily trodden upon if our own ox is not being gored at the time we give these freedoms up. Very few of the herd see the interrelationship. What can I say? In many ways I've already given up. Hell, in Indiana I couldn't even write in Adlai Stevenson and have my vote "count"... I feel disenfranchised. It would be different if I honestly felt that electing one of the two ass clowns presented by the majors would make a real difference when it comes to "governance" of this train wreck.

In any event, it's not fair to be assigning motive to you, not knowing you personally. I really hope that I truly have just fallen into a cynical abyss from which I can no longer see hope that is actually springing eternal. Blah, blah blah... I just can't force myself.
Just a few thoughts,

Danno
     I'm feeling safer already - (rcareaga) - (10)
         Serious question... - (danreck) - (9)
             Is there a Twelve-Step for Boolean addiction? - (Ashton) - (2)
                 Not quite that easy, Bucko... - (danreck) - (1)
                     Checking in a bit late - (Ashton)
             OT: What part of Indiana are you in? - (mmoffitt) - (3)
                 Does that mean... - (admin)
                 Re: OT: What part of Indiana are you in? - (danreck) - (1)
                     Wolcottville. - (mmoffitt)
             Re: Serious question... - (rcareaga) - (1)
                 fair enough... - (danreck)

Didn't they bury this game in Mexico or something?
75 ms