Stale libs?

Post #178,181 by pwhysall 10/7/04 9:24:43 AM Reply	Stale libs? How? On SuSE? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,186 by deSitter 10/7/04 9:27:08 AM Reply	Be more specific You mean superseded by a new version, or not used? -drl
Post #178,188 by pwhysall 10/7/04 9:31:16 AM Reply	Scenario: You update using YaST. So a new libpng3 is installed. Nothing now uses libpng2, because all the packages that used libpng2 have been upgraded. However, because of the different APIs, libpng2 and libpng3 are different packages - the one does not upgrade to the other. How would you determine if anything depends on libpng2? How would you then do that for all library packages? And then remove them? I'd have thought a man dedicated to system tightness, like you, would have wanted to do this. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,195 by deSitter 10/7/04 10:08:56 AM Reply	? SuSE is RPM based .. so insofar as RPM allows library dependence (it does) it will be handled. Apparently the dependency lists are well-maintained because nothing breaks. -drl
Post #178,196 by pwhysall 10/7/04 10:14:28 AM Reply	Answer the question. You've just told me things I already know. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,197 by folkert 10/7/04 10:14:33 AM Reply	Not what he is asking. He wants to know, how you can determine if said library is no longer needed period. He says nothing about breaking anything. He was talking removal of said library, automatically or by process intended to do this. Basically removing any library or other supporting cruft that is no longer needed. How do you remove these things, knowing they will never be needed, as such like he pointed out, the API changed and incremented the version name but not to the exclusion of the old package. Now everything has been linked to the new API and hence the old one is obselete. How do you determine which libraries are obselete and are not needed to be loaded on the machine. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #178,198 by deSitter 10/7/04 10:36:02 AM Reply	Re: Not what he is asking. I don't determine it - the SuSE people who maintain dependency lists do. -drl
Post #178,200 by folkert 10/7/04 10:57:08 AM Reply	You are missing the POINT! Yast won't auto-magically remove it. time line: original install of libpng2 ton of apps the rely on libpng2 libpng3 is installed over the next few weeks all packages are updated to use libpng3 libpng2 is still installed as it doesn't conflict nor break anything system upgrade time version 10.1 of SuSE- libpng2 still installed libpng3 is updated but still doesn't conflict with libpng2, libpng2 still hanging around now 2 years later libpng4 appears not replacing libpng2 or 3. Another API change All apps are updated in a few weeks to now use libpng4 libpng2 and libpng3 now live on your machine. How would you determine that. Don't say "SuSE Engineers" because they won't remove those 2 obselete libraries. That is a Distro NO-NO. And therefore won't do it. So tell me genius, how would you determine it? -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #178,344 by deSitter 10/7/04 9:05:43 PM Reply	So? What is YOUR point? As long as all dependencies are satisfied, and I'm too lazy to remove something that isn't used, why should I care? -drl
Post #178,349 by n3jja 10/7/04 9:29:44 PM Reply	Unless I'm missing something...... As long as all dependencies are satisfied, and I'm too lazy to remove something that isn't used, why should I care? .... couldn't that same argument be made of a stock kernel? Where's the difference?
Post #178,353 by daemon 10/7/04 10:26:21 PM Reply	Re: Unless I'm missing something...... perhaps package b has depends on the old libs, then doc's idea has merit regards, daemon
Post #178,428 by folkert 10/8/04 9:55:30 AM Reply	Did you read The scenario I pointed out? Do you understand? No, I am not being obtuse. I specififed all that. My point is Ross can't/won't do anything saving time, even to save his life. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #178,356 by deSitter 10/7/04 10:47:15 PM Reply	Re: Unless I'm missing something...... It's a discipline thing. First, I don't have useless libraries on my system. fooker's scenario doesn't arise on my machine - everything "in play" is real. Second - I could delete a lot of stuff I don't use. But I know everything in /lib/modules/2.4.20 is real, and everything in /usr/src/linux/.config is exactly tailored to my own system. Sure, I could just go in an check all the modules I'll never need, but it's almost an artistic value to have the software guts exactly match the hardware. Unlike Windows, I have the beautiful possibility of making an OS that exactly matches in every detail my own hardware. Another point - the modules issue is secondary to compiling for my exact processor, power management, file systems, and network role. Only because I slogged through the entire thing do I know what is what. It was worth it just to learn the kernel. As a result, I can easily build my own system from scratch if needed. If something goes wrong, I'll be able to track it down immediately. Hey, why do you still do OS/2? "Because it's a tight, beautiful solution" right? I think I get pissed at the mob mentality because it belittles the idea of hard-won beauty in favor of lazy expediency. This attitude is eventually ruinous of everything it touches. -drl
Post #178,387 by pwhysall 10/8/04 3:23:23 AM Reply	Re Re Wind And the crowd said, "Bo Selecta". You're talking nonsense. Because you upgrade with an automated tool that is guaranteed to not remove superfluous libraries, you're pretty much guaranteed to end up with stale, unused libraries on your system. How do you GUARANTEE that such a such a situation does not occur in your oh-so-tight system? Oh, balls to this. You can't. That's it; it's that simple. There's no tool for doing this on RPM-based Linux distributions. It's down to you going "rpm -qa", parsing the results, and figuring it out for yourself. On the other hand, there is a tool for doing this on Debian-based distributions; it's called "deborphan" and it removes libraries and packages (as you see fit, natch) that nothing depends on. In fact, in order to ensure that one's system remains "tight" (whatever the hell that means - on the one hand, you're spectacularly anal about what kernel modules are available, on the other you don't appear to give a shit what's strewn about the filesystem) there's an even better tool - "debfoster". debfoster removes packages and everything that they and they alone depend on. I'd have thought such things would appeal to your silly sense of "tightness", but now that you've backed yourself into the "Debian is shit! I think it, therefore it's true!" corner, you'll never be able to use them (at least, and admit it). Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,393 by deSitter 10/8/04 6:11:54 AM Reply	Ok, that's nice Why can't I download that and run it on my machine? Sounds pretty standalone. Remember "repeats.com" for DOS? -drl
Post #178,403 by pwhysall 10/8/04 7:37:50 AM Reply	Good luck with that. Knock yourself out: [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org/code/\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org/code/] It won't work out of the box, though. You need dpkg. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,407 by deSitter 10/8/04 8:26:30 AM Reply	Can I alter it for RPM? -drl
Post #178,411 by pwhysall 10/8/04 8:47:45 AM Reply	I dunno. Can you? It's GPL software, if that's what you're asking. Making it work with RPM-based systems is a Small Matter Of Programming. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,419 by folkert 10/8/04 9:28:44 AM Reply	BTW.... I have let this go one to long: MY NAME IS: FOLKERT Get it right. Not "fooker". -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #178,435 by FuManChu 10/8/04 11:23:38 AM Reply	Always wondered: is the "L" silent as in "folk"? Guessing no
Post #178,451 by folkert 10/8/04 12:12:27 PM Reply	As in: Foal-curt -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #178,461 by deSitter 10/8/04 12:54:31 PM Reply	Re: BTW.... Term of respect, but since your so pissy...fine. -drl
Post #178,478 by pwhysall 10/8/04 2:47:32 PM Reply	His so pissy what? Illiterate colonial baboon. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,524 by n3jja 10/8/04 7:00:06 PM Reply	HEY!! Illiterate colonial baboon. That's illiterate colonial wanker. Leave us colonial baboons out of it, thank you very much! ;-)
Post #178,562 by deSitter 10/8/04 11:28:06 PM Reply	Yeah, you pasty skinned photon trap! -drl
Post #178,422 by folkert 10/8/04 9:37:29 AM Reply	Okay then... another thing Let us just say you have everything on your machine you want, nothing more. Except it is getting rather slow for your liking. How would you transfer your setup COMPLETELY grabbing every setting and nuance, using your kernel method, to a much newer machine? Ask Drew how we did his work machine. From a pissy 300MHz machine that was WAY overstrapped, but setup exactly the way he wanted(apache, php, custom sites etc...), to a much nicer and more resource rich 1GHz machine. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #178,423 by deSitter 10/8/04 9:38:40 AM Reply	Re: Okay then... another thing I'd never "transfer" a system. What is this, DOS? I'd make a freshie and move my data over. -drl
Post #178,426 by folkert 10/8/04 9:49:01 AM Reply	Eaxctly the point I was trying to make. You make effort to reduce your wheel spinning. I have the same Installation at home for my XP3200+ as I had for my Pentium 200MMX. THIS is why you cannot comprehend Debian. "Freshie" isn't really a good idea. Debian is all about maintaining what you have and bringing it forward to help you get on with much more profitable things to do. Without "going into installation mode, booting from CD", can you Upgrade your system from one version of SuSE to another? Remember while still providing services? Without restarting the machine? Without really breaking anything? (maybe a few things got changed and have to be manually edited to comply with the new methods) How about that. Drew never even noticed the change. His passwords worked, the apache setup worked, etc... I'd be willing to bet you couldn't build a freshie and have it backup with ALL services within an hour, not breaking ANYTHING or forgetting something. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]

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