I'll take a contrarian view

Post #178,115 by broomberg 10/6/04 9:50:41 PM Reply	I'll take a contrarian view Commercial: Then Suse. If you are using it to prepare for additional corporate environment Linux use, you want close to bleeding edge while maintaining support, you want auto-updating patching (I think Professional is $90 per year, Enterprise is $300), and you might need to run 3rd party commercial software, and you don't want to be raped by RH, then Suse is a nice choice. If you want somewhat friendly support around here (as long as you you don't start spouting how stupid a particular suggestion is, ie: don't bite the hand that is trying to help you, escpecially is you are probably wrong), then Debian is the way to go. And Ross, NEVER recompile your kernel if you can avoid it. Use the built in method of enabling and disabling pieces on the fly, which means you can auto-update security patched kernels.
Post #178,118 by daemon 10/6/04 10:05:00 PM Reply	why not recompile the kernel? what is it about the kernel that is sancrosact? the kernel is pieces of code that "supposedly" can be modded by anyone and build features in? Yes adding modules in and out is convenient but hobbling oneself out of fear is not a reason to touch unix to begin with. Get a win/mac solution and have brighter smarter folk dive into the guts of the OS (you hope) and suckup what they give you. I had a similar discussion elsewhere about changing kernel params via a gui or not this from a 10 year veteran of the OS who worked as a senior SA at the vendor! People can no longer understand simple switches/config unless a pretty screen is involved. Fuckit it is bytes bits ones and zreos so why is there some much heartburn over how the base parts of the engine works with the chip! On another note the supposed security of Linux because everyone can look at the code, hands up from everyone who used aptget based on a vague discussion of a module that sounded interesting without ever looking at the source, all guilty I suspect. bah, humbug, regards, daemon bah, humbug, regards, daemon
Post #178,119 by broomberg 10/6/04 10:12:27 PM Reply	Nothing to do with sacrosanct It is a matter of your ONGOING time requirement. Spend an hour tweaking, getting things "just right". Not that it didn't run before, just that is took a bit too much memory or spent an extra 30 seconds booting. Memory is cheap. Booting is rare. And then the kernel security update comes out. AND YOU HAVE TO DO IT AGAIN!!! And again, and again. Then the day comes that you don't have time so you let it slide. And then you get nailed. It is simply a poor time / effort tradeoff, especially in a business environment when your time really does equal money.
Post #178,121 by daemon 10/6/04 10:20:16 PM Reply	Re: Nothing to do with sacrosanct but everytime (of course depending on how one makes money for their respective company) is a learning knowledge transfer experience. Always of value. Using manage speak I am the mumbler in the corner who can do anything that no one else can figure out as opposed to the team member who can sort of do a lot but passes off to the mumbler when arcane crap comes up. Lots of room for team members, mumblers one per work sector. regards, daemon
Post #178,125 by broomberg 10/6/04 10:37:52 PM Reply	What the hell is that supposed to mean? That you do obscure things in order to protect your turf? What arcane task REQUIRES you to recompile your kernel? And yes, I accept that there will be times that require it, but it should be made with complete knowledge of the possible downsides. Here is an example that bit my boss THIS MORNING. He has a new wiz-bang 3ware card. High end, top of the line. And no distro currently has drivers for it. So he went through the painful step by step setting up a box to boot from IDE while also having the card in it. He compiled the driver and munged the box to then use it for booting so he could then pull the IDE out of the picture. He had everything tuned and running nicely. And BANG! Security update from Suse and he forgot to mark the kernel as untouchable. Reboots the box, fails to see his boot disk. DOA. He asked me if I would be willing to swap my previous generation 3ware card. Not a chance. I offered him an 9 year old EISA DAC960 SCSI controller. He didn't take it.
Post #178,314 by daemon 10/7/04 6:20:06 PM Reply	Re: What the hell is that supposed to mean? discuss that over beers in july :) regards, bill
Post #178,139 by deSitter 10/7/04 3:26:59 AM Reply	absurd You tailor .config to your EXACT setup. You compile genksyms so modules can be reused. Once you've done the upfront effort it takes minutes to make and install a new kernel because only the few modules really needed by your machine get compiled. I spend almost no time worrying about my SuSE system. The autoupdates handle it. It's the most trouble-free OS I've used and admined next to VMS. -drl
Post #178,156 by broomberg 10/7/04 8:08:24 AM Reply	Ahh, so maybe I get to learn something Except when the subject line says, "absurd", and it essentially an insult with JUST enough information to pique my interest without really telling me enough to do the task. Hmm. man genksyms Not real helpful. [link\|http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=suse+genksyms+.config&btnG=Search\|http://www.google.co...onfig&btnG=Search] Nothing jumps out. Lots of points for further investigation. Nah. This DOES look interesting, but you really haven't pointed me in any firm direction, and a "thousand points of Google" is not really that helpful. It is not a pain point with me at this time. I will try to never put bleeding edge non-standard stuff in our data center. On the other hand, the 10 shiny new dual/quad Opterons, most of which will be running Suse, might drive me to it. Note: I am not the sysadmin. I'm not supposed to be taking a lot of time on stuff like this. But I am the final Go To Guy, so I still want to know. What version of Suse do you run? What CPU? What RAID card / external array? What file systems? How much storage? How many users? What types of applications are being run? What are your uptime requirements? How many systems? How many admins?
Post #178,159 by deSitter 10/7/04 8:24:14 AM Reply	Ok, sorry out of line to say "absurd" I thought you were piling on. I forgot that you're the sensible Linux real worlder here. In the dark past a new kernel meant all new modules. You can avoid that by including module version information in the object files. In /usr/src/linux you'll find a file .config - there's an option CONFIG_MODVERSIONS (make menuconfig and look under "Loadable Module Support" - 2.4.x). Here's what it does: [link\|http://www.skynet.ie/~mark/home/kernel/symbols.html\|http://www.skynet.ie...rnel/symbols.html] So you only have to recompile modules whose interface has changed. -drl
Post #178,207 by ben_tilly 10/7/04 11:24:34 AM Reply	You mean that he's the ONLY one? I thought that I was another. I just don't bother with pointless religious wars. My attitude is that I recommend Linux where I know that it will work well. I don't unless I have a good case for it. I've been doing so since the late 90's. I don't use it where I can't prove its value. However given that computers in my environment are replaced slowly (and I'm not the one replacing them), I don't bother playing a lot with exotic stuff. However I have the freedom that Barry doesn't to say that my organizations can support itself. Therefore I have the opportunity to use Debian. I'm not a particularly strong advocate for it though. At my current job the developers exclusively use Linux, as well as the servers that our code runs on. (We don't have to use Linux, but it has to be Unix-compatible. Right now we are split between Red Hat and Debian.) The DBAs have Linux available, as does the IS team. The graphics department has some Macs. Everything else is Windows. Databases run on Solaris, but plans are in place to replace them with Linux. I claim no responsibility for this state of affairs - it was like this when I arrived. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #178,157 by pwhysall 10/7/04 8:11:50 AM Reply	What's the cost-benefit analysis of such an exercise? If it doesn't save more than it costs, then it's a waste of time. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,160 by deSitter 10/7/04 8:26:43 AM Reply	Re: What's the cost-benefit analysis of such an exercise? The benefit is knowing that the hardware exactly matches the kernel and modules. This works for me, as demonstrated by not a single panic in the last 5 or more years. Do you buy generic toilet paper? Or a parallel-butt-tested name brand? -drl
Post #178,161 by pwhysall 10/7/04 8:28:18 AM Reply	Feel free to answer the question. That's just handwaving. Of course, you're free to demonstrate how a module that's just sitting around on disk and not loaded can cause problems. BTW, in SuSE, how do you find out which libraries and packages are no longer required? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,163 by deSitter 10/7/04 8:36:08 AM Reply	It's an attitude For something as low level as hardware, the software should exactly match. This is self-evident. Do you configure TCP/IP networking correctly for client vs. server vs. router? Exact same issue. make menuconfig. Have a go. I'll bet you leave red and yellow marks all over your Windows device mananger too, and your event logs are probably also a mess. -drl
Post #178,165 by pwhysall 10/7/04 8:38:42 AM Reply	Answer the question. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,176 by broomberg 10/7/04 9:05:41 AM Reply	As the duly appointed business "Linux" person At least appointed by you. Please answer the question in concrete measurable terms.
Post #178,180 by deSitter 10/7/04 9:23:53 AM Reply	Re: As the duly appointed business "Linux" person I can't, not the way you want. You can live with stock stuff if you want. Fine, everyone does it. But you have the facility to make the software match the hardware without any doubts. Why not do it? I also like to keep my carbs synched, my chain tight, my tires properly inflated, my oil changed. -drl
Post #178,181 by pwhysall 10/7/04 9:24:43 AM Reply	Stale libs? How? On SuSE? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,186 by deSitter 10/7/04 9:27:08 AM Reply	Be more specific You mean superseded by a new version, or not used? -drl
Post #178,188 by pwhysall 10/7/04 9:31:16 AM Reply	Scenario: You update using YaST. So a new libpng3 is installed. Nothing now uses libpng2, because all the packages that used libpng2 have been upgraded. However, because of the different APIs, libpng2 and libpng3 are different packages - the one does not upgrade to the other. How would you determine if anything depends on libpng2? How would you then do that for all library packages? And then remove them? I'd have thought a man dedicated to system tightness, like you, would have wanted to do this. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,195 by deSitter 10/7/04 10:08:56 AM Reply	? SuSE is RPM based .. so insofar as RPM allows library dependence (it does) it will be handled. Apparently the dependency lists are well-maintained because nothing breaks. -drl
Post #178,196 by pwhysall 10/7/04 10:14:28 AM Reply	Answer the question. You've just told me things I already know. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,197 by folkert 10/7/04 10:14:33 AM Reply	Not what he is asking. He wants to know, how you can determine if said library is no longer needed period. He says nothing about breaking anything. He was talking removal of said library, automatically or by process intended to do this. Basically removing any library or other supporting cruft that is no longer needed. How do you remove these things, knowing they will never be needed, as such like he pointed out, the API changed and incremented the version name but not to the exclusion of the old package. Now everything has been linked to the new API and hence the old one is obselete. How do you determine which libraries are obselete and are not needed to be loaded on the machine. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #178,198 by deSitter 10/7/04 10:36:02 AM Reply	Re: Not what he is asking. I don't determine it - the SuSE people who maintain dependency lists do. -drl
Post #178,200 by folkert 10/7/04 10:57:08 AM Reply	You are missing the POINT! Yast won't auto-magically remove it. time line: original install of libpng2 ton of apps the rely on libpng2 libpng3 is installed over the next few weeks all packages are updated to use libpng3 libpng2 is still installed as it doesn't conflict nor break anything system upgrade time version 10.1 of SuSE- libpng2 still installed libpng3 is updated but still doesn't conflict with libpng2, libpng2 still hanging around now 2 years later libpng4 appears not replacing libpng2 or 3. Another API change All apps are updated in a few weeks to now use libpng4 libpng2 and libpng3 now live on your machine. How would you determine that. Don't say "SuSE Engineers" because they won't remove those 2 obselete libraries. That is a Distro NO-NO. And therefore won't do it. So tell me genius, how would you determine it? -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #178,344 by deSitter 10/7/04 9:05:43 PM Reply	So? What is YOUR point? As long as all dependencies are satisfied, and I'm too lazy to remove something that isn't used, why should I care? -drl
Post #178,349 by n3jja 10/7/04 9:29:44 PM Reply	Unless I'm missing something...... As long as all dependencies are satisfied, and I'm too lazy to remove something that isn't used, why should I care? .... couldn't that same argument be made of a stock kernel? Where's the difference?
Post #178,353 by daemon 10/7/04 10:26:21 PM Reply	Re: Unless I'm missing something...... perhaps package b has depends on the old libs, then doc's idea has merit regards, daemon
Post #178,428 by folkert 10/8/04 9:55:30 AM Reply	Did you read The scenario I pointed out? Do you understand? No, I am not being obtuse. I specififed all that. My point is Ross can't/won't do anything saving time, even to save his life. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #178,356 by deSitter 10/7/04 10:47:15 PM Reply	Re: Unless I'm missing something...... It's a discipline thing. First, I don't have useless libraries on my system. fooker's scenario doesn't arise on my machine - everything "in play" is real. Second - I could delete a lot of stuff I don't use. But I know everything in /lib/modules/2.4.20 is real, and everything in /usr/src/linux/.config is exactly tailored to my own system. Sure, I could just go in an check all the modules I'll never need, but it's almost an artistic value to have the software guts exactly match the hardware. Unlike Windows, I have the beautiful possibility of making an OS that exactly matches in every detail my own hardware. Another point - the modules issue is secondary to compiling for my exact processor, power management, file systems, and network role. Only because I slogged through the entire thing do I know what is what. It was worth it just to learn the kernel. As a result, I can easily build my own system from scratch if needed. If something goes wrong, I'll be able to track it down immediately. Hey, why do you still do OS/2? "Because it's a tight, beautiful solution" right? I think I get pissed at the mob mentality because it belittles the idea of hard-won beauty in favor of lazy expediency. This attitude is eventually ruinous of everything it touches. -drl
Post #178,387 by pwhysall 10/8/04 3:23:23 AM Reply	Re Re Wind And the crowd said, "Bo Selecta". You're talking nonsense. Because you upgrade with an automated tool that is guaranteed to not remove superfluous libraries, you're pretty much guaranteed to end up with stale, unused libraries on your system. How do you GUARANTEE that such a such a situation does not occur in your oh-so-tight system? Oh, balls to this. You can't. That's it; it's that simple. There's no tool for doing this on RPM-based Linux distributions. It's down to you going "rpm -qa", parsing the results, and figuring it out for yourself. On the other hand, there is a tool for doing this on Debian-based distributions; it's called "deborphan" and it removes libraries and packages (as you see fit, natch) that nothing depends on. In fact, in order to ensure that one's system remains "tight" (whatever the hell that means - on the one hand, you're spectacularly anal about what kernel modules are available, on the other you don't appear to give a shit what's strewn about the filesystem) there's an even better tool - "debfoster". debfoster removes packages and everything that they and they alone depend on. I'd have thought such things would appeal to your silly sense of "tightness", but now that you've backed yourself into the "Debian is shit! I think it, therefore it's true!" corner, you'll never be able to use them (at least, and admit it). Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,393 by deSitter 10/8/04 6:11:54 AM Reply	Ok, that's nice Why can't I download that and run it on my machine? Sounds pretty standalone. Remember "repeats.com" for DOS? -drl
Post #178,403 by pwhysall 10/8/04 7:37:50 AM Reply	Good luck with that. Knock yourself out: [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org/code/\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org/code/] It won't work out of the box, though. You need dpkg. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,407 by deSitter 10/8/04 8:26:30 AM Reply	Can I alter it for RPM? -drl
Post #178,411 by pwhysall 10/8/04 8:47:45 AM Reply	I dunno. Can you? It's GPL software, if that's what you're asking. Making it work with RPM-based systems is a Small Matter Of Programming. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,419 by folkert 10/8/04 9:28:44 AM Reply	BTW.... I have let this go one to long: MY NAME IS: FOLKERT Get it right. Not "fooker". -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #178,435 by FuManChu 10/8/04 11:23:38 AM Reply	Always wondered: is the "L" silent as in "folk"? Guessing no
Post #178,451 by folkert 10/8/04 12:12:27 PM Reply	As in: Foal-curt -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #178,461 by deSitter 10/8/04 12:54:31 PM Reply	Re: BTW.... Term of respect, but since your so pissy...fine. -drl
Post #178,478 by pwhysall 10/8/04 2:47:32 PM Reply	His so pissy what? Illiterate colonial baboon. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #178,524 by n3jja 10/8/04 7:00:06 PM Reply	HEY!! Illiterate colonial baboon. That's illiterate colonial wanker. Leave us colonial baboons out of it, thank you very much! ;-)
Post #178,562 by deSitter 10/8/04 11:28:06 PM Reply	Yeah, you pasty skinned photon trap! -drl
Post #178,422 by folkert 10/8/04 9:37:29 AM Reply	Okay then... another thing Let us just say you have everything on your machine you want, nothing more. Except it is getting rather slow for your liking. How would you transfer your setup COMPLETELY grabbing every setting and nuance, using your kernel method, to a much newer machine? Ask Drew how we did his work machine. From a pissy 300MHz machine that was WAY overstrapped, but setup exactly the way he wanted(apache, php, custom sites etc...), to a much nicer and more resource rich 1GHz machine. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
Post #178,423 by deSitter 10/8/04 9:38:40 AM Reply	Re: Okay then... another thing I'd never "transfer" a system. What is this, DOS? I'd make a freshie and move my data over. -drl
Post #178,426 by folkert 10/8/04 9:49:01 AM Reply	Eaxctly the point I was trying to make. You make effort to reduce your wheel spinning. I have the same Installation at home for my XP3200+ as I had for my Pentium 200MMX. THIS is why you cannot comprehend Debian. "Freshie" isn't really a good idea. Debian is all about maintaining what you have and bringing it forward to help you get on with much more profitable things to do. Without "going into installation mode, booting from CD", can you Upgrade your system from one version of SuSE to another? Remember while still providing services? Without restarting the machine? Without really breaking anything? (maybe a few things got changed and have to be manually edited to comply with the new methods) How about that. Drew never even noticed the change. His passwords worked, the apache setup worked, etc... I'd be willing to bet you couldn't build a freshie and have it backup with ALL services within an hour, not breaking ANYTHING or forgetting something. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link\|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp\|source] Here is an example: [link\|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/\|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]

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