Getting all wet over the prospect of Winning Big, are we?

(We'll Show them Viet gooks that Murica don't lose Two Wars - no matter What It Costs)

cha. cha. cha.

Danno, you ain't got the normal excuses - you've actually Read stuff. Language murder isn't yet an Official capital-crime; after the nuke wars: it just May Become the Prime directive.

We're seeing the playing out of The Open Society and Its Enemies [Karl Popper] while you are rutting around in the inflammatory blab-words of a bunch of ex-Trotskyites who found themselves a p(r)awn - a malleable Born-agin-n'agin God-Talks-To-Me zealot, a wastrel, a dullard and a mere memorizer of slogans taught by PNAC-operatives. Rove made him as surely as Gepetto made Pinocchio: a fair comparison IMO, given that his entire shtick is the mouthing of a tissue of loaded blab-word Lies. Third-hand.

Hey.. you could win the Presidency with just the Evangelicals' votes...

That was evident in his utterly Fluffed opportunities to say something cogent, something unrehearsed.. in the 'debate'. Instead, he just re-ran the loop slogans; utterly out-of-context. Embarrassingly So. We All Saw Him. The man has the temperament and Temper w/ incipient tantrum (it is reported) of a 2-yo, when somebody says directly: NO !!

And you -here- mean to retroactively dignify the jingoism by which the Rove/Bush figurehead arrogated the power to arbitrarily attack any 'nation' of Earth, at will, regardless of that clause within our primal Document (of that former Republic we tried). [remember .?. that .. ..decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.] No, maybe you don't.

That *you* can chew, swallow and now say, "It's Good" -- all which has followed since the White House surrogate-CIA/NSA/PNAC ad hoc group OVER-RODE == molded, edited and spun the intelligence re Iraq.. belies the philosophical underpinnings I know that you have been (at least exposed-to). Maybe you just memorized that stuff, though; sound-byte style. There's a lot of that, these days.

Sorry, Charlie - the bellicose world-next-?, now apparently well inside your view of the maya shall/would! see Popper's list of the vulnerabilities of our (once.. approximately....) open society realized, as the place is submerged again into the Hate-speak mindset of My Gramma. AGAIN, and after a mere half century == some of us Are Still Here; are old enough to REMEMBER an Ashcroftian wet-dream realized for a couple decades. Loyalty oaths. 'Neighbor Watches' of a different kind.

Danno: THIS SHIT ALREADY FUCKING *HAPPENED* HERE <<<
alas, just a bit early for you to recall Living through it.

And what that COST then and assuredly Will-cost, (only multiplied exponentially by new techno- invasions) in its reptilian-brain replay. There will be little-left Worth-'defending' by deficit-bought armies of back-pack nuke equipped ~~Bunker Busters~~ messiahs of military Ignorance-is-Truth enforcers as will have to be ranged all across the planet. An NRA wet-dream: as in BANG BANG BANG.

If you still imagine.. that 'our weaponry' can counter the exponential growth of those whom we have galvanized-into despising the present US-Admin -- then you don't know shit about personal-Vengeance in action, and you've forgotten Utterly! the fragility of complex techno infrastructures to any small groups of motivated, dedicated sowers-of-Chaos.

IF (Diebold and the other doubts extant re credibility.. are somehow assuaged?) this election sees anything like a clear-mandate for the Neoconman agenda - as WILL be taken for a mandate for More of The Exact Same: your kids will see membership in the Fatherland Youth. (Putin's just following Our Lead - remember him? We'll have a partner ~~ a Microsoft-partner. Dave.. I can Feel It.. I can Feel It..)

Our social 'infra'structure is teetering just like Henrik Willem Van Loon's sketch of the one-mile wooden cube/crate holding all of humanity, teetering on the edge of the Grand Canyon. The little dog pushes with his nose - -

Y'know, I saw a quote on the Bridge column a few days ago (I don't do Bridge, but I look at quotations)

Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence.
Anon.

I've been around techno-types most of my life; never ceases to amaze and discourage.. how many of these, but most especially those at the "technician" level -- had used Boolean BS to justify early-inculcated slogans that reside in that 'ol reptile brain-stem thingie. A facility for memorizing slogans is Not (even academic) scholarship; it's just inhuman-logic applied to Humans. It's Rove+Ashcroft, on EEPROM automatic. Windoze 'security'.

Pity.

Edit - forgot our buddy Putin. A bedfellow. Makes one Proud, that.

No matter which ass clown carries the election... You know that is really what I'm about. I just threatened to vote. :-0

You write (and this is/continues to be the crux of our disagreement):

And you -here- mean to retroactively dignify the jingoism by which the Rove/Bush figurehead arrogated the power to arbitrarily attack any 'nation' of Earth, at will, regardless of that clause within our primal Document (of that former Republic we tried). [remember .?. that .. ..decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.] No, maybe you don't.

That *you* can chew, swallow and now say, "It's Good" -- all which has followed since the White House surrogate-CIA/NSA/PNAC ad hoc group OVER-RODE == molded, edited and spun the intelligence re Iraq.. belies the philosophical underpinnings I know that you have been (at least exposed-to). Maybe you just memorized that stuff, though; sound-byte style. There's a lot of that, these days.

"The power to arbitrarily attack any 'nation' of Earth...decent respect to the opinions of mankind that they should declare causes which impel them to the separation"... If I understand this statement correctly, you are implying that the US did not "declare" its intentions before this war? There were 10 + years of sanctions, shit - an actual war in '91, his state of the union, his ultimatums, the first UN resolution, etc... Arbitrarily indeed. In any case, the end justified the means. Even your current hero seems to agree with this. (read the text at [link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/debatereferee/debate_0930.html|http://www.washingto.../debate_0930.html] word search to "The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for preemptive strike." Quit with the no IQ nonRovian bullshit, eh... Natch, Natch...

Dude, it's this simple. Even a stopped clock (non-digital) is correct twice a day. Even more to the point (made by analogy), just because those who have witnessed dusk and dawn realize that there is more than just night and day - it doesn't change the fact that most of the time it's either night or day. Think about it.

When I was watching Kerry effectively intellectually eviscerate W, I couldn't help but think - just because someone speaks eloquently, doesn't mean they're not still full of shit... after his most powerful moment in the debate when Kerry says: "But this issue of certainty. It's one thing to be certain, but you can be certain and be wrong.

It's another to be certain and be right, or to be certain and be moving in the right direction, or be certain about a principle and then learn new facts and take those new facts and put them to use in order to change and get your policy right."

Ah, if only the last part was heeded... But I am as certain as the sun appears to rise in the east and set in the west that neither of these candidates will adhere to the most basic tenet of liberal philosophy as to try to "improve". It's not in our history or the history of mankind. Just my $.02...

YMMV...

Post #177,762 by Ashton 10/4/04 6:30:02 PM 10/4/04 6:56:40 PM Reply	Getting all wet over the prospect of Winning Big, are we? (We'll Show them Viet gooks that Murica don't lose Two Wars - no matter What It Costs) cha. cha. cha. Danno, you ain't got the normal excuses - you've actually Read stuff. Language murder isn't yet an Official capital-crime; after the nuke wars: it just May Become the Prime directive. We're seeing the playing out of The Open Society and Its Enemies [Karl Popper] while you are rutting around in the inflammatory blab-words of a bunch of ex-Trotskyites who found themselves a p(r)awn - a malleable Born-agin-n'agin God-Talks-To-Me zealot, a wastrel, a dullard and a mere memorizer of slogans taught by PNAC-operatives. Rove made him as surely as Gepetto made Pinocchio: a fair comparison IMO, given that his entire shtick is the mouthing of a tissue of loaded blab-word Lies. Third-hand. Hey.. you could win the Presidency with just the Evangelicals' votes... That was evident in his utterly Fluffed opportunities to say something cogent, something unrehearsed.. in the 'debate'. Instead, he just re-ran the loop slogans; utterly out-of-context. Embarrassingly So. We All Saw Him. The man has the temperament and Temper w/ incipient tantrum (it is reported) of a 2-yo, when somebody says directly: NO !! And you -here- mean to retroactively dignify the jingoism by which the Rove/Bush figurehead arrogated the power to arbitrarily attack any 'nation' of Earth, at will, regardless of that clause within our primal Document (of that former Republic we tried). [remember .?. that .. ..decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.] No, maybe you don't. That you can chew, swallow and now say, "It's Good" -- all which has followed since the White House surrogate-CIA/NSA/PNAC ad hoc group OVER-RODE == molded, edited and spun the intelligence re Iraq.. belies the philosophical underpinnings I know that you have been (at least exposed-to). Maybe you just memorized that stuff, though; sound-byte style. There's a lot of that, these days. Sorry, Charlie - the bellicose world-next-?, now apparently well inside your view of the maya shall/would! see Popper's list of the vulnerabilities of our (once.. approximately....) open society realized, as the place is submerged again into the Hate-speak mindset of My Gramma. AGAIN, and after a mere half century == some of us Are Still Here; are old enough to REMEMBER an Ashcroftian wet-dream realized for a couple decades. Loyalty oaths. 'Neighbor Watches' of a different kind. Danno: THIS SHIT ALREADY FUCKING HAPPENED HERE <<< alas, just a bit early for you to recall Living through it. And what that COST then and assuredly Will-cost, (only multiplied exponentially by new techno- invasions) in its reptilian-brain replay. There will be little-left Worth-'defending' by deficit-bought armies of back-pack nuke equipped ~~Bunker Busters~~ messiahs of military Ignorance-is-Truth enforcers as will have to be ranged all across the planet. An NRA wet-dream: as in BANG BANG BANG. If you still imagine.. that 'our weaponry' can counter the exponential growth of those whom we have galvanized-into despising the present US-Admin -- then you don't know shit about personal-Vengeance in action, and you've forgotten Utterly! the fragility of complex techno infrastructures to any small groups of motivated, dedicated sowers-of-Chaos. IF (Diebold and the other doubts extant re credibility.. are somehow assuaged?) this election sees anything like a clear-mandate for the Neoconman agenda - as WILL be taken for a mandate for More of The Exact Same: your kids will see membership in the Fatherland Youth. (Putin's just following Our Lead - remember him? We'll have a partner ~~ a Microsoft-partner. Dave.. I can Feel It.. I can Feel It..) Our social 'infra'structure is teetering just like Henrik Willem Van Loon's sketch of the one-mile wooden cube/crate holding all of humanity, teetering on the edge of the Grand Canyon. The little dog pushes with his nose - - Y'know, I saw a quote on the Bridge column a few days ago (I don't do Bridge, but I look at quotations) Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence. Anon. I've been around techno-types most of my life; never ceases to amaze and discourage.. how many of these, but most especially those at the "technician" level -- had used Boolean BS to justify early-inculcated slogans that reside in that 'ol reptile brain-stem thingie. A facility for memorizing slogans is Not (even academic) scholarship; it's just inhuman-logic applied to Humans. It's Rove+Ashcroft, on EEPROM automatic. Windoze 'security'. Pity. Edit - forgot our buddy Putin. A bedfellow. Makes one Proud, that. The genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves that make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them that we are missing. --Gamel Abdel Nasser via Rick Moen Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The more uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely what is right and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has been the work of men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who have whooped them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is always skeptical and tolerant, in this field as in all others. His culture is based on "I am not too sure." --H.L. Mencken via Rand Edited by Ashton Oct. 4, 2004, 06:56:40 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #177,827 by danreck 10/5/04 11:17:02 AM 10/5/04 11:32:04 AM Reply	Noone wins... No matter which ass clown carries the election... You know that is really what I'm about. I just threatened to vote. :-0 You write (and this is/continues to be the crux of our disagreement): And you -here- mean to retroactively dignify the jingoism by which the Rove/Bush figurehead arrogated the power to arbitrarily attack any 'nation' of Earth, at will, regardless of that clause within our primal Document (of that former Republic we tried). [remember .?. that .. ..decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.] No, maybe you don't. That you can chew, swallow and now say, "It's Good" -- all which has followed since the White House surrogate-CIA/NSA/PNAC ad hoc group OVER-RODE == molded, edited and spun the intelligence re Iraq.. belies the philosophical underpinnings I know that you have been (at least exposed-to). Maybe you just memorized that stuff, though; sound-byte style. There's a lot of that, these days. "The power to arbitrarily attack any 'nation' of Earth...decent respect to the opinions of mankind that they should declare causes which impel them to the separation"... If I understand this statement correctly, you are implying that the US did not "declare" its intentions before this war? There were 10 + years of sanctions, shit - an actual war in '91, his state of the union, his ultimatums, the first UN resolution, etc... Arbitrarily indeed. In any case, the end justified the means. Even your current hero seems to agree with this. (read the text at [link\|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/debatereferee/debate_0930.html\|http://www.washingto.../debate_0930.html] word search to "The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for preemptive strike." Quit with the no IQ nonRovian bullshit, eh... Natch, Natch... Dude, it's this simple. Even a stopped clock (non-digital) is correct twice a day. Even more to the point (made by analogy), just because those who have witnessed dusk and dawn realize that there is more than just night and day - it doesn't change the fact that most of the time it's either night or day. Think about it. When I was watching Kerry effectively intellectually eviscerate W, I couldn't help but think - just because someone speaks eloquently, doesn't mean they're not still full of shit... after his most powerful moment in the debate when Kerry says: "But this issue of certainty. It's one thing to be certain, but you can be certain and be wrong. It's another to be certain and be right, or to be certain and be moving in the right direction, or be certain about a principle and then learn new facts and take those new facts and put them to use in order to change and get your policy right." Ah, if only the last part was heeded... But I am as certain as the sun appears to rise in the east and set in the west that neither of these candidates will adhere to the most basic tenet of liberal philosophy as to try to "improve". It's not in our history or the history of mankind. Just my $.02... YMMV... Just a few thoughts, Danno Edited by danreck Oct. 5, 2004, 11:32:04 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #177,895 by Ashton 10/5/04 5:34:57 PM Reply	It's a Trotskyite-Geek tragedy..

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