The ongoing saga,

9/27/04 10:09:14 PM

Re: The ongoing saga,

John says if it's an Athlon you might be able to lift the lever that holds the CPU in before you lift the fan up. That way when you lift the fan up, if it's stuck to the CPU the CPU will come up with it, hopefully undamaged and you can pry it off more carefully.

The problem we had with ours was the lever to release the CPU was UNDER the fan and there was no way to get to it and release the CPU without removing the fan first.

Good luck!

Brenda
Nightowl >8#

"It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends."
(Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).

Post #176,663

9/28/04 1:35:16 AM

John is a hamfisted buffoon.

I think the safest thing to do is ignore his advice, Brenda.

Post #176,665

9/28/04 1:39:44 AM

I saw it too

And I was standing there when the computer guy selling us our new CPU, showed us the Athlon one, with the lever that you could pull on the outside, to release the CPU, and then he showed us the one we had that had the lever underneath where the fan went for the Pentium.

And I Sir, am NOT a Hamfisted buffoon. Of course, neither is John, but that's not the point.

Nightowl >8#

Post #176,667

9/28/04 1:44:31 AM

Maybe he was talking about me :)

As to whether he's right or not ... well depends upon what state the CPU and Heatsink are in, once I separate them :)

Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.

Post #176,668

9/28/04 1:45:24 AM

Only if your name is John too. :)

Good luck with it!

Brenda

Post #176,669

9/28/04 1:46:17 AM

Yep, 'tis. Sorry, forgot it's no longer in my sig.

Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.

Post #176,670

9/28/04 1:54:08 AM

Ah ok

That explains it then :)

I still think he meant my John though.... However, if my John is so bad, he wouldn't have been at a programming job for 5 years now. Mind you, hardware isn't his specialty, but still! :) And recently he got awarded a "cash" prize for work above and beyond the call of duty on a problem at work.

So I'm not worried, he's no buffoon. :)

Nightowl >8#

Post #176,671

9/28/04 2:07:22 AM

Programming is no proof of skill.

As the hardware chaps here (they who play with motorway [link|http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/contractors/driver_info/variable/variable1.html|electronic message signs]) would say, "trust a softie to fuck it up".

Programmers are almost invariably bad news for computers. Your husband is no exception, and his track record has been demonstrated in [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=172827|this very forum].

Post #176,673

9/28/04 2:10:59 AM

9/28/04 2:15:48 AM

And I still maintain my argument

That if you couldn't release the CPU before pulling off the fan, you had no control over the fact that it stuck to the fan bottom. And there was NO way, and I emphasize this, NO WAY whatsoever to reach under the fan and release the CPU, OR hold it down while removing the fan.

I still maintain that no one could have removed it without pulling up the CPU.

Edit: Oh, and programming IS proof of skill. Skill in programming. :)

Have a nice evening, Peter.

Brenda

Edited by Nightowl Sept. 28, 2004, 02:15:48 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #176,679

by deSitter

9/28/04 3:21:59 AM

STFUYIIB

-drl

Post #176,682

9/28/04 3:29:22 AM

Fatuous guff.

"No Way".

I like how you get from "we couldn't do it" to "it's impossible".

And as any senior softie will tell you, being a programmer doesn't mean you're any good at it.

Note: I've got an Athlon XP 1800 whose ZIF lever is obscured by the heatsink. I've successfully removed it (heatsink/fan, then CPU, for a mobo transplant). I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to work out how I did it.

Post #176,769

9/28/04 11:53:13 AM

I didn't say all

Of course many are removed successfully. It really depends on the material used and whether it decides to become a sticky glue-like substance, which is what happened.

But you're away from the point. The point isn't what my husband can or can't do, it's the nature of the motherboards. I myself also saw the motherboards, and one athlon had a lever outside and the Pentium board, (same one I had) didn't. I'm not saying all Athlons have a lever outside or all Pentium's have it inside, I'm saying that's what I saw. That's also what the computer store owner demonstrated.

So the bottom line isn't about my husband. It's whether or not I'm right about the levers, and on those two boards I am. I simply told Meerkat it's possible that there's a release lever on the outside, since it's an Athlon.

Have a good day, Peter.

Nightowl >8#

Post #176,772

9/28/04 12:50:10 PM

You didn't read my post.

It can be done, because I did it. You are doing it WRONG.

Post #176,773

9/28/04 12:54:24 PM

Ditto

I said it can be done successfully.

Nightowl >8#

Post #176,774

9/28/04 1:00:03 PM

No, you did not.

You whinged and pissed and moaned about how the CPU was stuck to the fan.

You twist the damn thing off. You do not pull.

You said it was impossible ("NO WAY", etc). It isn't.

Post #176,775

9/28/04 1:06:51 PM

9/28/04 1:07:52 PM

In our case the fan came straight up.

There was no twisting allowed.

I'll make my point one more time.

The issue isn't what my husband did or didn't do. The issue is whether or not the advice I gave Meerkat is correct or not, and to my knowledge it is correct.

I saw two separate motherboards at the computer store, one Athlon, and one just like mine. The Athlon had a lever on the outside (not under the fan). The one like mine had the lever on the inside, (under the fan). I'm not saying ALL Athlons have an outside lever, or all Pentiums have an inside lever, but the two I saw did.

I simply gave him the information that since he had an Athlon, to check where the levers were. He might be lucky enough to have a lever on the outside he can pull to release the CPU before pulling off the fan.

That is the ONLY information in dispute. And I've seen no one dispute that what I saw with my own eyes at the computer store isn't true, at least not yet.

My husband is plenty skilled enough for me, I don't care what you all think of him, and he doesn't either. So let's stick to the point, which wasn't my husband, but the layout of the motherboards. Are you saying I'm incorrect and there aren't both types of levers?

Brenda

Edit: corrected spelling and grammar.

Edited by Nightowl Sept. 28, 2004, 01:07:52 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #176,777

9/28/04 1:13:38 PM

No twisting allowed?

I'm wondering if I've been elaborately trolled.

IHBT. IHL. IWHAND.

Post #176,779

9/28/04 1:17:50 PM

9/28/04 1:21:51 PM

Not that I saw

The fan had four slots that the four feet clipped into, right over the CPU. The guy at the computer store said it was one of the weirdest fans he'd ever seen. Not only that, but it was hard to get off or on when there wasn't even a CPU under it.

The new fan he put on is so much nicer, and doesn't fasten nearly as weirdly. And I haven't been trolling you, I don't even really understand what that means, truthfully, I've just been telling you what I saw.

Nightowl >8#

Edit: changed clips to slots, because clips isn't really a good description. It was more like a square hole that you pushed the feet down into until it clicked.

Edited by Nightowl Sept. 28, 2004, 01:21:51 PM EDT

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Post #176,911

by static

9/28/04 11:43:34 PM

Best you don't poke the animal. ;-)

As you might have noticed, Peter is currently enjoying baiting people.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed

Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

Post #176,912

9/28/04 11:46:35 PM

I noticed

Gives me practice learning to stay off the hook. ;)

But I still don't get his reference to me as trolling. I thought trolling was when someone jumps in here just to rile people up and makes posts about hot issues.

But hey... in today's language it could mean anything from various forms of online trolling to hiding under a bridge and waiting to eat billy goats. ;)

Nightowl >8#

Post #176,914

by static

9/29/04 12:23:05 AM

It means he thought you were winding him up.

The expert trolls can come across 150% sincere and only prior experience with said poster will reveal if it's genuine or a put-on.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed

Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

Post #176,915

9/29/04 12:28:10 AM

9/29/04 10:39:24 AM

Ah, thanks & Sorry Peter, here are the Fan Specs

No I wasn't. It's a genuine fan, that snaps into the motherboard, and is really hard to pull loose, has to come straight up, although you can pull one end up at a time.

Blame it on Pentium, they made it. ;)

Edit: I hunted up the box and old fan, and it says:
Intel Pentium 4 Processors. This Intel Pentium 4 Processor includes a high quality fan heatsink for successful integration. This processor is intended to be professionally installed.

Hmmm wonder if they deliberately made it where it wouldn't be okay if NOT professionally installed. I assume they mean by a licensed hardware technician?

Anyway, the fan is weird, it has little black legs of a sort, that come down almost to the bottom, but not quite. The motherboard, which is a Pentium D845PESV, comes with a Retention Mechanism, which basically looks like a frame around the Processor. (You fasten it to the motherboard). It has a little low square wall or frame, with four little raised end squares with slots in them on each corner, around the CPU. The bottom part of the "frame" is higher than the CPU slot, and the clips go into the little squares or something like that. (Kinda looks like a tower with points on each corner, only they are square points). The upshot of this arrangement, is it completely smothers the CPU, you can't get to it or to the lever to release it, from underneath because of the frame wall, which is about maybe half inch high, (I'm guessing, cause that is still inside the case), and you have to install the fan straight down, one end at a time, and remove it the same way.

The fan itself has numbers all over the top, but I don't know if they would help in identifying it or bringing up a picture, but wait, I found something else. The processor manual refers to it as the: P4 Socket Processor Fan. And it says they also make screw-on types Clip On Types, and Passive Clip-On types. But none of those use the retention mechanism I described above, so we have the P4 one.

I can see where you would be able to twist a screw-on type fan though, however,this isn't what we had. So I'm sorry if Peter thought I was putting him on, I was not.

Anyway, that's all the information I seem to be able to find on the fan.

Edit: Actually, I managed to find a picture of it on the net as well. :)
Here is the fan itself:
[link|http://www.telecommander.com/pics/links/cpu's/intels478fan/intels478fan.htm|http://www.telecomma.../intels478fan.htm]

And this link gives you all sorts of views of both the retention mechanism and the fan itself, (scroll down till you see the images).
[link|http://support.intel.com/support/processors/pentium4/sb/CS-007989.htm|http://support.intel.../sb/CS-007989.htm]

Nightowl >8#

Edit: corrected the description
Edit: added links and corrected about retention mechanism.
Edit: Forgot to change subject line last night, so I did that today

Edited by Nightowl Sept. 29, 2004, 01:05:38 AM EDT

Edited by Nightowl Sept. 29, 2004, 01:08:45 AM EDT

Edited by Nightowl Sept. 29, 2004, 01:17:35 AM EDT

Edited by Nightowl Sept. 29, 2004, 01:20:17 AM EDT

Edited by Nightowl Sept. 29, 2004, 01:37:50 AM EDT

Edited by Nightowl Sept. 29, 2004, 10:39:24 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #176,920

by altmann

9/29/04 1:37:14 AM

I Concur. No twisting Allowed

You can't twist off a stock Pentium 4 fan/heatsink assembly. The 4 posted bracket permanently attached to the motherboard fits right up against the sides of the rectangular heat sink.

It can also be a bear to remove after the fact, as I recently found when switching mine to a quieter Zalman model. I nearly had one of my all too frequent Hulk moments.

--
Chris Altmann

Post #176,921

9/29/04 1:40:15 AM

Thank you

I'm so glad someone believes me. :)

Nightowl >8#

Post #176,652

by Another Scott

9/27/04 11:41:49 PM

It sounds like it's getting too hot.

74-75 C is very toasty. It shouldn't be that hot.

Did any of the internal temperatures change with the new case fan? I would expect it to be a little cooler inside, but apparently it's not enough to make a difference.

Can you remove the case and put a box fan by it? If it still locks up then you would know that it's not a problem that can be solved by increasing the airflow. At that point it might mean that some of the RAM has gone bad or something.

If you could stress it without stressing the video and have it lock up (say doing a search for "a" then "the" then "is" in all files on the disk or something), then that might help you determine whether it was related to the video card without going through the hassle of installing a new card and drivers.

The "sticky pad" stuff is probably a "phase change" material that is intended to insure a good thermal path between the CPU and the heat sink. It's usually recommended that it be replaced when its disturbed, IIRC. I'm a fan of heat-sink compound myself, but it is messy and you have to be careful not to use too much.

Also check [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=74110|this] thread - maybe something will ring a bell there.

HTH a bit.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #176,658

9/28/04 12:12:45 AM

Good find, that thread!

I'd forgotten about it in the intervening year-and-a-bit.

I already had 'BIOS Upgrade' and 'Try Knoppix to see if it's some weird Windows issue' on my to-do list, but after reading some of the temperatures other people were getting, a new heatsink/fan is on the shopping list.

Or I'll just give up, swap it with my Duron 700, and see if he notices the difference :-)

Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.

Post #176,662

9/28/04 1:32:44 AM

My Athlon XP 1800 runs at that temp all the time.

Post #176,683

9/28/04 3:30:48 AM

Addendum

I did find a document back in the day (can't find it NOW, of course) that had the thermal limits for the XP1800.

It's good up to about 90 degrees C(!).

Post #176,710

9/28/04 8:10:22 AM

Got it.

[link|http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=3&q=http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/25175.pdf&e=7317|http://www.google.co.../25175.pdf&e=7317]

Chapter 6, page 23 (absolute page 35). Maximum die temperature 85 deg C.

Post #176,712

by deSitter

9/28/04 8:15:39 AM

Re: Got it.

Boiling point for nerd fat.

-drl

Post #176,715

by Another Scott

9/28/04 8:37:39 AM

Just because it can run at 90 C doesn't mean it's normal.

Those are maximum on-die values and may not be the same as what the BIOS states (some recent motherboards have listed anomalously low temperatures). Cooler is better even if the CPU can take it - it increases the life of the chip. The fact that it's quitting indicates that it's not happy. :-)

[link|http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlon-xp-2200.html|This] page talks quite a bit about Athlon XP temperatures in comparison with the P4. [link|http://www.cpuidle.de/|CPUIdle] is some software that claims to reduce the CPU temperature by telling it to idle when it's not working. No idea if it works, but it might be worth trying.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #176,716

9/28/04 8:41:07 AM

As noted...

...mine has been running at ~75C for over 2 years now.

Post #176,718