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New But did they know what they'd *said*?
BeeP:
I would have to say I understand why people >claim< 1st Amendment infractions...but it would seem to me that there could be several ways in which the Court could be given access to these documents which would in no way hamper her ability to act on them or to "report" on what she had...in essence...they could get them without limiting her freedom.
Yeah, *possibly*...IFF a lot of other circumstances are all "just so"...*exactly* right for that to work in this *particular* case...but is it worth it...to create such a horrendous precedent...which could then be referred to...in a lot of *other* cases...where the circumstances might NOT be so benign?

(Oh, and have I mentioned that your occasional bouts of over-ellipsoidism are rather annoying? :-)


They were not asking for her "sources"...they already knew who they were. She was not protecting her sources...again...they already knew who they were.
But if her "working materials" (which was what they requested, IIRC?) are her scribbled notes from interviews with these sources... Notes full of juicy quotes, circled and annotated "OFF THE RECORD" -- then she COULD very well have been protecting her sources, no?

Or do you think the cops'n'courts would buy her trying to claim that such quotes, in the middle of her notes of, say, an interview with Joe H. Schmoe III (Deputy Minor Official With Insight Into The Dirty Laundry) -- are quotes of somebody *else* than mr Schmoe? Some anonymous Deep Throat who barged in on them to impart a bit of Secret Knowledge on her, and then let her go back to interviewing mr Schmoe? Possibly several times during the same interview...?

I have a very very hard time believing anyone would buy that, or that you sincerely believe anybody would.


This is why I think the 1st amendment is losing impact...because wolf is being cried far too often...and imo...using that as a defense in this case is extremely marginal.
What fucking use is a law, if any single instance of trying to actually *use* it can be brushed off with "crying wolf"? Isn't the law supposed to protect everybody, "wolf-crier" or not, equally?
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New Look...
...its bad enough that people try and invent rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

And the slippery slope works both ways...and my subject of discussion is whether or not we've slid to far in the direction you're supporting...more rather then less.

I don't mind the attempt of using that defense, I do mind that the woman is still in jail...but I also get annoyed when people seem "surprised, shocked and outraged" when the Court takes a hardline stance against someone using that claim spuriously. And there are ALOT of these cases...maybe this isn't one of them...but it was the post that started the discussion.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Interesting.
"but I also get annoyed when people seem "surprised, shocked and outraged" when the Court takes a hardline stance against someone using that claim spuriously."

So, there are instances where these claims are "spurious"?

Enough instances that it annoys people?

Well, certain people.
New Re: Interesting.
Yes there are times when these claims are spurious.

Sort of like you inventing a civil rights case out of an airport security issue.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Perhaps you could provide an example?
Unless you'd rather continue the prior discussion instead?
New Why?
So you can ignore it like in the prior discussion?

Not likely.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New The same M.O. I see.
I love how you never change.
New Glad to spread the love
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Looked, saw: eventually Clarence Thomas will have to retire
and they'll need a replacement er Strict Constructionist to complete the de-Liberalizing of all those fringe amendments; like women voting n'stuff.

I have a Dream.. .. through the smoky glass I see appearing ---> a New Path.

{Harp arpeggios.. kazoo syncopation.. 5/4 time}

If you continue to keep nose clean, rub Hombergs with some of the other folks waiting in the -Wings in DC: why you could clean up the remaining wishy-washiness in the system - perhaps even bring in Tri-State Logic [The Econ Program\ufffd, with a few Plug-ins?]

Yes-No-Maybe Mistruth Table (Bryce can give a hand with that) and OO too - we *want* reusable unCivil Codes / Uniformity is umm the Aim. Natch.

Why.. you could almost - just using your Right hand - eliminate all those namby-pamby human uncertainties with a single stroke of yer light-pen (from your secure office in the Pentagon - where the USSC was moved after certain er unpleasantness in the streets in '08)

Hey! yer ahead of the trend, already know 'bout digitization, and that should count lots! ~ 2010 when the current tots have been trained-up for life in a cubicle (and taught to actually prefer that to.. {ugh} that unfiltered country air! All those plant spores.. and messy grass you can't re-paint when it fades.)

{coda: Harps cease Thank Gawd; cornet solo in C# minor, doloroso, ppp}

Nahhh - actually my guess is you're a sleeper; couldn't possibly akshully be as iron-assed as your periodic logic-bombs imply. I think.. you can get in under the screen [!!] and then:

Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle..

Kill! the DEA, the DMCA-III, UCITA-IV, Patriot Act VII, Search-anyone-Anytime-III, Iron-Maiden, ... and all the other scaredy-cat stuff passed in '06. Right?

(All the while a goin.. hee hee hee to the combined squeaking/thunking sounds of both Clarence and Scalia - a spinnin' in those graves! and occasionally hittin' the sides with flailing arms)


Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle..


Ashton
awakened California Yankee in King Ronnie's Court
New Dear oh dear...
...Yep...we can't have women voting...what happens if they're in..."the cycle".

Nope...we have gone...from a healhy dose of respect for authority (without complete submission to said...)...to in inbred distrust and rejection of authority...which is all well and good (until someone comes in shooting)...

Because...in an effort to make sure NOTHING happens to infinge upon anything that we could ever possibly want to do...we just happen to pitch the all important "common sense" in order to protect our fanaticism.

And at the mere mention of a hint of a question of that tendency...comes the firebrand of...well....just reread your previous...er 20 or so posts to me.

All I need to do is mention my "rights"...and noone should >ever< question...because >I< am the supreme authority....correct?
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Naaah - simpler than that..
Yeah.. sometimes I can yearn for a couple weeks spent back in the Ike years.. not much to worry about 'cept maybe McCarthy fingerin ya? or Ike's final speech - tryin to warn about that there military-industrial complex. (Getting a bit senile then? - as we see: no such animal! It morphed to the Corp-Congress Complex, replacing the original CCC (which performed actual work!)).

(See, basically I'm a conservative; want to conserve the Good stuff and jettison the Awful stuff - romanticize None of the stuff. Put expiration dates for re-vote on All of the New stuff. QED)

{sigh} I actually do see (some of) your points, wish too that the I-word (er integrity) had not been retired from disuse.. so that I *might* er trust 'Government' to represent something other than Bizness - via overt purchase from unlimited funds, employed without any semblance of the I-word.

So that's where we diverge - you believe in the math of Econ, and (apparently) trust Bizness! to be the Trusted-Key, capable of supplanting Govt. (with its warts + a few Good Wo/Men: the best of the career folk).

I OTOH deem the Biznessfolk as having been adequately characterized by George Babbitt (especially those at the top: given the amount of lying, spin and bestial behavior, ever to arrive there).

I'll take an educated career Govt. employee over any (OK - with very few exceptions) Biz-Ad MBA. I've watched their faces in seminars as the Billys of the world come to lecture on: unlimited funds, out there to Get - by any means you can devise. But please to call this process Success!. No, I call it - leveraging matters so that a very few profit greatly from the labors of all - with allegiance to none but selves. Employees [today] are overtly described as liabilities, not assets. Noticed?

As to trusting either group.. to sorta 'modify' some of the Bill of Rights.. sorta? you have to be kidding. Yes, it may allow for some rotten claims, too close to call with confidence - but we actual conservatives support the Constitutional theme:

Better that some escape punishment than any innocent person be punished.

This *especially* in a time when all are trying to recover from the recent Tulip Craze wherein - any 20+ year old 'oughtta' be worth $50M by age 30, if he's doing his web page right.. uhhh - get us a min-wage janitor, willya Kevin?

Nope.. in the time of a deathly-ill I-word: Leave that Amendment wide open to max coverage. How long? Until Billy n'Bally (n'Scott n' ___) are actually serving time somewhere. Then we can talk about a few minor exceptions.


Cheers,

A.
New Tis what I meant...
...when I said the slope is slippery in both directions...

While you wouldn't have things modified by the "system"...you err on the side of having them modified by the "fringe", for lack of a better term.

So what you end up with are good intentions gone bad...where public and individual good are sacrificed to live up to a "principle" that has no basis in its original intent.

I, quite frankly, don't trust either side...because neither shows any "sense". Case in point...the gentleman from California...duly elected...fired for saying the pledge and honoring the flag he was elected to serve...because his cohort thought it may "offend" some>one<.

I find that attitude to be very destructive...but in >principle< it seems to be what garners support.

Being nice to everyone will be our downfall.

You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New We meet in the middle, then :-)
I will join you in eschewing, excoriating, polemicizing into a quivering mass of rancid Jello:

most any case ~ where dishonest application of (once) meaningful words is lawyered into an abomination. Offhand though: I can't think of a single nameable 'group' - wherein the murder of language is not at least occasionally tolerated, as the essential means for advancement, leaving us with the cognitive dissonance -

The person you *want* for President ought to be .. only someone dragged kicking and screaming - like GW (no, not That GW: Washington.)

Pledges / oaths may not be coerced however; a coerced oath is invalid on its face - the core of the inanity of the McCarthy era and its demand for such, merely to work / eat.

In marketing/bizness: the murder of language is the explicit means to the end of selling the unnecessary to the weak-willed. What more need be said? Let their extinction be accelerated.

{sigh}

But back to Amendment in same spirit: it's the duty of the Judge to ferret out* the frivolous, duplicitous and just plain obscenely obtuse 'claim' and apply suitable decision.

* I misplaced link to that Wonderful case involving a 'maritime' claim of stunning duplicity: the Judge said so in pure Monty Pythonese. That is how it should be.

I don't think that any number of micro-laws can make it possible for dumb people to judge well; believe also that the wiser Judge needs the least number of laws. This will never approach being a 'science': we have to settle for it's being an art - and take our chances. Improve those by educating away from dumbth and towards a 'liberal education' (what that has always connoted) + discrimination to choose the better - between the old and the newly proposed. More we cannot 'do' IMhO. (I've never heard the phrase, a conservative education. You?)

Sorry - back to 2001. Fat chance: language has Anthrax.



Ashton
whose mistrust knows no bounds, while I remain in mere human form.
     Still in jail - (andread) - (23)
         Well... - (imric) - (22)
             Could someone explain to me... - (bepatient) - (21)
                 easy - (boxley) - (3)
                     Hmmm - (bepatient) - (2)
                         Nah. - (imric) - (1)
                             Better - (bepatient)
                 The idea - (JayMehaffey) - (16)
                     Brevity Award! - (Ashton)
                     In essence, - (bepatient) - (14)
                         Well.. if we were mostly-sane 24/7 - (Ashton)
                         But did they know what they'd *said*? - (CRConrad) - (12)
                             Look... - (bepatient) - (11)
                                 Interesting. - (Brandioch) - (5)
                                     Re: Interesting. - (bepatient) - (4)
                                         Perhaps you could provide an example? - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                             Why? - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                 The same M.O. I see. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                     Glad to spread the love -NT - (bepatient)
                                 Looked, saw: eventually Clarence Thomas will have to retire - (Ashton) - (4)
                                     Dear oh dear... - (bepatient) - (3)
                                         Naaah - simpler than that.. - (Ashton) - (2)
                                             Tis what I meant... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                                 We meet in the middle, then :-) - (Ashton)

Okay, that's not how law works for regular people.
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