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New Of course, it's trivial, in and of itself.
All this talk about medals isn't what the Swift Boat Veterans are steamed about. It's just something that has to be brought up before we can deal with the real issues - Kerry's slandering of our forces in Vietnam and his betrayal of POWs.

It's also something that has to be gotten out of way to question Kerry on anything else at all. Kerry's using this war hero stuff as a shield to deflect any serious criticism of him. Say anything at all against him and it's: "How dare you criticize a war hero!!!(TM)" Never mind that they took pot shots at Bob Dole.

This is why Kerry is so pissed. He was supposed to be immune to serious questioning, on all subjects. Now he isn't, on any subject.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Kerry is a liar and he doesn't tolerate fights from others.
"All the news you wish would go away"
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
New Up or Down, Marlowe: Are you saying That US forces DIDN'T
rape, pillage, abuse, and/or kill innocent civilians in Viet Nam?

Enquiring minds want to know....
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New Sure you're not asking about Iraq?
New Not yet...
Marlowe's Swift Boat heroes, as Marlow hisself, are crying in their collective beer about John Kerry testifying about having personally witnessed atrocities in Viet Nam. Philbert implies, but never says (because he's a fucking coward), that Kerry lied in that testimony. (Actually, Philbert implies that Kerry lies about everything, but that's an issue for another day....) I want it on the record here that Philbert explicitly, unambiguously, states for the record that no US troops committed atrocities in Viet Nam. More specifically, I want the scheisshern to state that the attrocities that Kerry testified to never happened, and back it up with verifiable facts. (Hint: the hew and cry of the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush or any related groups, or any groups receiving money from the RNC or Bush-backed 527s need not apply.)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

New Point of order.
I was under the impression that Kerry [link|http://www.c-span.org/2004vote/jkerrytestimony.asp|testified] before the Senate about things that were discussed during the Winter Soldier meeting. Things that others had done or witnessed. Not things that he had done or witnessed himself.

IIRC, he said at the time that he and others had committed "war crimes" by burning villages, but AFAICR, he never claimed to have committed or witnessed atrocities himself.

Am I mistaken?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who personally thinks that it's clear that US troops did commit atrocities in Vietnam. I'm annoyed by Kerry's testimony, and his spin on his testimony, putting all of the blame on the brass and none on the people who did the acts though.)
New Marlowe's not claiming it didn't happen.
He's asserting that talking about it is A betrayal.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
Expand Edited by imric Sept. 5, 2004, 10:42:17 PM EDT
Expand Edited by imric Sept. 5, 2004, 10:42:25 PM EDT
New As is: Questioning the current Authority,
no matter what lying, thieving manipulation has occurred, nor how hopeless shall become the incendiary ME situation we have created - for all those duplicitous reasons.

The philbot is So My Gramma; I could write his smarmy crap from memory of the 50 yo Original screeds of the Birchers. Pathetic twit.
New agree with marlowe here
swift boats are more about attacking Kerry, the Kerry of 1970's who tainted these other vets with accusations of war crimes. Now name a war where americans didnt rape, kill civillians or otherwise commit geneva convention violations, you wont find one, however not all troops were involved in such things, just some. Men at war brings out both the best and the worst and to a lot of vets, Kerry's meesage was taken as a personal insult.
thanx,
bill
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New I.E., he's getting shafted for telling the truth.
New so here's a big slab of Kerry's testimony
—go to town, little fella. Cite the slanders:
Thank you very much, Senator Fulbright, Senator Javits, Senator Symington and Senator Pell.

I would like to say for the record, and also for the men sitting behind me who are also wearing the uniforms and their medals, that my sitting here is really symbolic. I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of a group of 1,000, which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table, they would be here and have the same kind of testimony. I would simply like to speak in general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification [only] yesterday that you would hear me, and, I am afraid, because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven't had a great deal of chance to prepare.

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago, in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis, with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit--the emotions in the room, and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that, at times, they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam,in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation. The term "winter soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine's in 1776, when he spoke of the "sunshine patriots," and "summertime soldiers" who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country, we could be quiet, we could hold our silence, we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel, because of what threatens this country, not the reds, but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.

I would like to talk to you a little bit about what the result is of the feelings these men carry with them after coming back from Vietnam. The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history; men who have returned with a sense of anger and a sense of betrayal which no one has yet grasped.

As a veteran and one who felt this anger, I would like to talk about it. We are angry because we feel we have been used it the worst fashion by the administration of this country.

In 1970, at West Point, Vice President Agnew said, "some glamorize the criminal misfits of society while our best men die in Asian rice paddies to preserve the freedom which most of those misfits abuse," and this was used as a rallying point for our effort in Vietnam.

But for us, as boys in Asia whom the country was supposed to support, his statement is a terrible distortion from which we can only draw a very deep sense of revulsion. Hence the anger of some of the men who are here in Washington today. It is a distortion because we in no way consider ourselves the best men of this country, because those he calls misfits were standing up for us in a way that nobody else in this country dared to, because so many who have died would have returned to this country to join the misfits in their efforts to ask for an immediate withdrawal from South Vietnam, because so many of those best men have returned as quadriplegics and amputees, and they lie forgotten in Veterans' Administration hospitals in this country which fly the flag which so many have chosen as their own personal symbol. And we cannot consider ourselves America's best men when we are ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia.

In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart.

We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but, also, we found that the Vietnamese, whom we had enthusiastically molded after our own image, were hard-put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.

We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of America, to leave them alone in peace, and they practiced the art of survival by siding with whichever military force was present at a particular time, be it Viet Cong, North Vietnamese or American.

We found also that, all too often, American men were dying in those rice paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how monies from American taxes were used for a corrupt dictatorial regime. We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by the flag, and blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties. We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs and search-and-destroy missions as well as by Viet Cong terrorism, - and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong.

We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai, and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.

We learned the meaning of free-fire zones--shooting anything that moves--and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.

We watched the United States falsification of body counts, in fact the glorification of body counts. We listened while, month after month, we were told the back of the enemy was about to break. We fought using weapons against "oriental human beings" with quotation marks around that. We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using, were we fighting in the European theater. We watched while men charged up hills because a general said that hill has to be taken, and, after losing one platoon, or two platoons, they marched away to leave the hill for reoccupation by the North Vietnamese. We watched pride allow the most unimportant battles to be blown into extravaganzas, because we couldn't lose, and we couldn't retreat, and because it didn't matter how many American bodies were lost to prove that point, and so there were Hamburger Hills and Khe Sanhs and Hill 81s and Fire Base 6s, and so many others.

Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of "Vietnamizing" the Vietnamese.

Each day, to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam, someone has to give up his life so that the United States doesn't have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say that we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."

We are asking Americans to think about that, because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? We are here in Washington to say that the problem of this war is not just a question of war and diplomacy. It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying, as human beings, to communicate to people in this country--the question of racism, which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions, such as the use of weapons: the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage at the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war, when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free-fire zones; harassment-interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions; the bombings; the torture of prisoners; all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam. That is what we are trying to say. It is part and parcel of everything.

An American Indian friend of mine who lives in the Indian Nation of Alcatraz put it to me very succinctly: He told me how, as a boy on an Indian reservation, he had watched television, and he used to cheer the cowboys when they came in and shot the Indians, and then suddenly one day he stopped in Vietnam and he said, "my God, I am doing to these people the very same thing that was done to my people," and he stopped. And that is what we are trying to say, that we think this thing has to end.

We are here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We're here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatrick, and so many others? Where are they now that we, the men they sent off to war, have returned? These are the commanders who have deserted their troops. And there is no more serious crime in the laws of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded. The Marines say they never even leave their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They've left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching behind them in the sun in this country....

We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped away their memories of us. But all that they have done, and all that they can do by this denial, is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission: To search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war; to pacify our own hearts; to conquer the hate and fear that have driven this country these last ten years and more. And more. And so, when, thirty years from now, our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say "Vietnam" and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory, but mean instead where America finally turned, and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning.
Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?
New there was a boatload of remfs who never saw a db
up close and personal. The troops preforming these actions were at the sharp end with the caveat that it takes 10 troops to keep one in the field. Did war crimes occure? Certainly but not by everyone all the time. That is like saying if you live in the hood you must be a crack smoking killer.

Now I attended many rallies back in the day and Kerry attended many of the same rallies. I am not saying the sentimnet is wrong, just pointing out that by bringing this issue up a lot of never smoked dope, stone middle aged rednecks who served will not vote for him, precicely for his stance taken back when.
thanx,
bill
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
     Navy investigation into Kerry medals - (JayMehaffey) - (12)
         Better a redundant-V than___a redundant-W -NT - (Ashton)
         Of course, it's trivial, in and of itself. - (marlowe) - (10)
             Up or Down, Marlowe: Are you saying That US forces DIDN'T - (jb4) - (5)
                 Sure you're not asking about Iraq? -NT - (ChrisR) - (4)
                     Not yet... - (jb4) - (3)
                         Point of order. - (Another Scott)
                         Marlowe's not claiming it didn't happen. - (imric) - (1)
                             As is: Questioning the current Authority, - (Ashton)
             agree with marlowe here - (boxley) - (1)
                 I.E., he's getting shafted for telling the truth. -NT - (inthane-chan)
             so here's a big slab of Kerry's testimony - (rcareaga) - (1)
                 there was a boatload of remfs who never saw a db - (boxley)

No clue.
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